Global Impact of English Pronunciation: Donna Durbin’s Perspectives on Why English is So Difficult to Pronounce

Welcome to another episode of MOJO: The Meaning of Life and Business. In this special episode, host Jennifer Glass engages in a thought-provoking conversation with guest Donna Durbin, the founder of Clear English Coach, aiming to reduce accent bias and enhance global English communication. Together, they explore the complexities of spoken English, the challenges faced by non-native English speakers, and the significance of mastering articulation, intonation, and rhythm. From pronunciation variations to the impact of simple greetings on human connections, this engaging discussion delves into language, culture, and the pursuit of passion in a diverse, interconnected world. Join us as we embark on a journey of understanding and connection in our ever-evolving linguistic landscape.

Keywords: English pronunciation, accent bias, spoken English, non-native English speakers, English communication, pronunciation variations, cultural understanding, diversity, equity, inclusion, speech therapy, British English, American English, code-switching, tonal language, language patterns, homophones, syllable stress, communication skills, business language, abstract artwork, language immersion, human connection, COVID-19 pandemic, language learning, intonation, articulation, tongue exercises, vocabulary differences, mouth exercises, lip movements

About my guest: Donna Durbin is a world traveler, professional artist, educator/trainer/coach, entrepreneur, and speaker. In 2016, she founded Clear English Coach. Her mission is to reduce accent bias and increase the success of English communication across the globe. She trains foreign nationals how to modify their spoken English to be understood by everyone.

Connect with Donna on ⁠Facebook⁠, ⁠LinkedIn⁠, ⁠YouTube⁠, ⁠Instagram⁠, and on the web at ⁠http://ClearEngllsihCoach.com

Transcript (auto-generated; may contain errors):

Jennifer Glass [00:00:02]:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Mojo, the meaning of life and business. A lot of times for those of us that are native English speakers, we’re going to be sitting there, and we’re gonna think, You know, that’s a really interesting way that you pronounce that word. And when you’re reading it, it gets even more interesting. Is it a tear? Or is it a tear? I had a friend of mine who one time sent me a note that they were tearing up about something. And for whatever reason, I was reading it as they were tearing it up, and it just didn’t connect. And so Think about, as native English speakers, how we assume everything is going to be a certain way and what it means for those of us that are not English speakers. So I have a really great guest on the show today who’s gonna talk with us about helping people Really understand the English language, helping them understand pronunciation, helping them figure out how to actually get certain things to work In their minds that they have a better grasp of what it actually means to be speaking and sounding Like, you’re actually talking English. But before I bring her on, let me tell you a little bit about her.

Jennifer Glass [00:01:23]:

Donna Durbin is a world traveler, professional artist, Educator, trainer, coach, entrepreneur, and speaker. Just in case you couldn’t get enough. In 2016, She founded Clear English Coach. Her mission is to reduce accent bias and increase the success of English communication across the globe. She trains foreign nationals how to modify their spoken English to be understood by everyone. Donna, welcome to the show.

Donna Durbin [00:01:52]:

Hello. I’m glad to be here. Hi, Jennifer.

Jennifer Glass [00:01:55]:

Absolutely. Hi. And thank you so much for being on the show today.

Donna Durbin [00:01:58]:

I’m delighted. Thank

Jennifer Glass [00:02:00]:

you. So, Donna, let me ask you. As I said in the introduction, I mean, the English language is so confusing. And that’s for those of us, like I said, that are native English speakers. So someone who’s coming here from overseas where the language is nowhere like English. What are they typically facing when they try and learn English.

Donna Durbin [00:02:31]:

Well, I think for the most part, most of them have been taught the grammar, vocabulary, And comprehension by non native English speakers. So these are somebody that learn the academic part or the Analytical part of a language, which is kind of easy to follow as far as rules, grammar rules, spelling, you know, as far as making things plural. I’m not so interested in that academic part of English, but the spoken part of English. And I think most of them get very confused when they come to they can read it. They can write it. But when they speak it, it doesn’t come out in the same way that we can stand them. And the same thing goes for them. They think they know our English, and then they come to the United States or to America, and we do not speak the way we write.

Donna Durbin [00:03:20]:

We use a lot of what we call reductions and linking. We have words that have stress and intonation, so it’s a very different Approach to learning to even train your ears to hear American English speakers and understand the difference. I was teaching ESL, English as a second language at University of Houston. And it was interesting to see how the young students came, and they felt very confident In their English, and when we would do the assessment test, for example, on the 1st day that they even have to be placed in a different level of class, The typical problem that they had is they could do really good on the test when it came to the grammar and the comprehension and the reading. But when we had the verbal Audible, listening part of it, they couldn’t pick up on the intonation and the inflection, which meant that Did you ask it as a sentence? Like, we can say, did John John went to John went home. We can say John went home. John went home. John went home.

Donna Durbin [00:04:25]:

We can change that inflection, and it changes the meaning of the answer that they would have to select. Most of them did not even understand what inflection was. So English is a very what? It changes, it grows, and it depends on the Part of the region that you live in, most of them thought we all spoke the same accent. And I kept saying, oh, no. People in New York, In Boston, New Jersey, California, Texas, you know, Arkansas, different places, we all have an accent just like in other countries. But they don’t know that because they just see English as being one thing. Even Britain. I mean, British English is English, but they have a different accent than American English.

Donna Durbin [00:05:12]:

So it is confusing. It is very confusing.

Jennifer Glass [00:05:16]:

That, they definitely do. I mean, it’s not Paul Street. It’s Paul Street. And trying to figure out Where the heck you’re trying to go? I mean, you’re talking English, but it’s not the same. And so it gets really confusing When we’re trying to actually figure out, well, what do we do? Where are we going? Why are we doing? And so Let me ask you. I mean, for someone who is trying to understand English, what is the first thing that they really need to grasp? Putting aside again the academic side, is it the intonation aspect? Is it the Not just the intonation, but also knowing if I’m talking like this because I’m from the deep south and I’ve got my southern drawl. You know, my main Is

Donna Durbin [00:06:07]:

that sound is that how I sound? Do I sound like that? Do I sound like I have a real southern drawl? I

Jennifer Glass [00:06:14]:

mean, So my question is, when someone is trying to understand that, Is it that they need to understand the intonation, or is it just also, the Particular location, where they are. And, again, like you said, Boston, you’re gonna have your kapok. And it’s not a garage. It’s a. And I’m saying car park, but it sounds because That’s how they speak. And really funny, you know, just in terms of the whole way that they do things. And then in Jersey, it’s forget about it.

Donna Durbin [00:06:56]:

Well, you know, part of what I’ve really broken it down into is that I consider English to be broken down into the articulation, which is the alphabet sounds, intonation, which is the melody, Rhythm and pitch change that we speak. And then also the vowels, which for most people are crazy. I mean, Especially my Spanish speakers, they will say, you know, they have 5 vowels and 5 sounds, and they stay consistent in Spanish. And in English, we have 5 vowels and 17 sounds. So it gets very confusing. And then even for myself, as I’ve become come more and more conscious of it. What I’ve realized is we have exceptions to those rules all the time. And so I’m going, I thought this would be fall into that pattern, but it’s like, oh, no.

Donna Durbin [00:07:49]:

That’s that’s an exception. And it gets to be very confusing Even for me, and I tell my clients, you know, you just have to be open to being listening. We all learn to speak a language before we have reading, writing, and grammar. We speak we learn to speak as a child, as an infant and a child, By listening and repeating and watching that person’s lips move. That’s how we pick it up. So I really approach it as a very physical activity that you have to use you have to practice mouth and tongue exercises To get your lips and tongue to coordinate and place differently for different sounds. So when I approach working with clients, I usually am assessing them for their articulation, which is the alphabet sounds. Are their lips and tongue in the same location as an American speaker When they’re speaking.

Donna Durbin [00:08:48]:

For example, Spanish speakers don’t have a distinguishing difference between the and b In their language. So it comes out, it’s very nice, instead of it’s very nice. And once I can show them that when they can change that one placement of the sound, they and and repeat it in words that have that Same v. Then they can retrain and rewire their mouth and muscles, their muscles and their brain to work together To correct that, so I start with the most simple thing, which is the alphabet, the American alphabet. And many Languages will impose their own alphabet onto English, which makes sense. Those are sounds that they are familiar with and that they know. My issue when I came to even starting to do this was that I was living in Thailand and was learning to speak Thai. Thai is a tonal language similar to to Chinese, but Chinese is 4 tones and Thai is 5 tones, which means you got Ma, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma.

Donna Durbin [00:09:55]:

That’s 5 different words. It’s like tiger, shirt, Of course. You know, there’s all these different now I’m I’m not being accurate here. So if you’re tying, I’ve done it wrong, then please excuse me. But what I realized is that I had to really become very careful about listening to how I said the tone because that was a different word. And I wanted to go to the street the market on Silver Street, and I could not say the word for silver. So as I was saying the sentence, and I don’t even remember what the sentence is now, they kept saying, no. That’s not right.

Donna Durbin [00:10:32]:

No. That’s not right. And I kept saying it, the sound to me like, like an n g at the beginning of the word. And they couldn’t explain to me how to say it correctly, and I thought this is the light bulb went off. This is what happens to my ESL students. They know they’re saying the word, but we don’t understand them. So pronunciation is something that’s really important. Now tone has more to do with intonation, and that’s like the 2nd important thing to learn.

Donna Durbin [00:11:03]:

If you say record over record, We hear a different word. One’s a noun and one’s the verb. Now we do have some rules around which I had to learn because as native English speaker, nobody really taught us this. Nobody explained the difference between voiced and unvoiced Vowels or consonants, which I tell my students. And when I started instructing them and giving them guidance, they said, Nobody has ever told us this. In all the years of English that we’ve had, nobody has ever told us this. And I thought, This is really primary information to be able to speak a language, so I’m gonna start doing that. So that’s what I did.

Donna Durbin [00:11:50]:

And I had been teaching at University of Houston for many years and left there to found my own company in 2016, and I’ve that’s what I’ve been doing full time since then. And it’s incredible. Like, I just had a, potential Japanese client that was on the phone with me earlier today, and she’s like, you know, we have some struggles in Japanese. And I said, yes. And so her r’s and her l’s, She can’t distinguish the difference, and she can’t move her muscles in that way to coordinate her tongue. So the difference between Fried rice and flied lice is hard for her to say. And that’s you have to kinda laugh at it. But once you identify those patterns and you can correct that, Then it corrects it in every word you say because you now have the conscious awareness of what your tongue and lips need to do Once you strengthen them enough to be able to coordinate them, just speak that way.

Donna Durbin [00:12:51]:

So that’s kind of a quick rundown. Was that. Did I answer your question?

Jennifer Glass [00:12:57]:

I think so. And, I mean, it’s really interesting when you’re looking at that and you’re trying to just understand What it is that they’re trying to do. I mean, working in a Chinese restaurant myself many years ago, it was always You know, you heard how they said things, and your mind has to just translate Mhmm. As a native speaker Because you know that they’re trying to get you to do the rice. They’re not asking you to check for a lace.

Donna Durbin [00:13:26]:

Well, a lot of that’s in con in context. We do understand. Right. It’s not that we don’t understand, but most of them have worked so many years to Try to learn English that this is like what I would say the last, 25% of refining your spoken language is to help you naturalize or modify your foreign language patterns, which are just habits. They’re unconscious Habits we all have to be able to then learn kind of a new normal for speaking American English. Right.

Jennifer Glass [00:14:03]:

The other thing also that must be complicating is that unlike most other languages, We don’t have gender language.

Donna Durbin [00:14:15]:

No. We don’t.

Jennifer Glass [00:14:17]:

And if you look at French, if you look at German, if you look at Hebrew, I mean, those are all languages. They have gender Very specific. And it’s funny because when I try talking Hebrew, I apologize to people in advance. I’m like, I am Going to apologize if I misgender you. I just the stuff that I learned growing up for Hebrew, I may or may not get right. And, you know, it’s the or to know whether or not it’s male or female in One tense. And then in a different tense, there’s a different way of putting it. And it’s, you know, the past, present, future, and then the Command tense and there’s a whole bunch of other ways just in Hebrew that that goes.

Jennifer Glass [00:15:05]:

And I know when I was learning, French, I even asked a friend of mine who is up in Montreal who she speaks French. And I asked her I said, How do you know when a word is supposed to be masculine or feminine? And she didn’t have an answer for that.

Donna Durbin [00:15:21]:

She didn’t know. Right.

Jennifer Glass [00:15:23]:

She didn’t. It’s just it is. And so we went to Google, and we got the answer. Well, if it ends in an e, then it’s female, I think it was. And, you know, if it doesn’t, then it’s male.

Donna Durbin [00:15:36]:

But Right. In English, we don’t have that, so that’s gotta be complicating also because in most other languages, they have that. Well, we have our own complications. We that may be simpler in English, but we have our own things like homophones or words that are Spelled the same, but are pronounced differently, or words that are spelled differently that are pronounced the same. So we’ve got our own sets. And English is a Conglomeration of lots of different languages. So for example, our French suffixes, which is like career An engineer, that’s gonna put the stress on the last syllable. Whereas 90% of our two Syllable nouns in English are stressed on the 1st syllable like bookcase, table, laptop.

Donna Durbin [00:16:24]:

We put the stress on the 1st syllable. So part of and then my Spanish speakers who don’t really have any intonation difference, or for our ears, they don’t, They tend to either put the syllable stress on the verbs rather than the nouns. So once you start to identify these differences, it really is Fascinating because I will tell my clients, they didn’t teach us this. We just learned it by hearing it and mimicking what we heard. We didn’t have we didn’t have rules of what voiced and unvoiced consonants are. Because like the differences between p and b, if you put your hand on your throat and you say a p, the p sound is p p p. There’s no vibration. But if you say b, b b b b, There’s vibration, and that makes a lot of difference in the it’s the same lip movement.

Donna Durbin [00:17:16]:

It’s just that it’s the difference is in the air. Try it. Try it. So that makes a big difference on whether our past tense e d Has one of 3 pronunciations are when our s is pronounced as a z because of the last consonant sound on words. So these are things that I’ve learned now that nobody told us this, but it certainly makes a difference for my Clients, and they’re going, oh, okay. This is why it’s not work ed. It’s worked. It’s a t because work Ends in air.

Donna Durbin [00:17:56]:

So that e d turns into a t, which is air. Whereas if it was gonna be a d, t, and d In the same location of our mouth, 1 is voiced, 1 is unvoiced. But that’s how We decide whether it’s gonna be a t or a d or if it’s gonna be an, which just means the word ends in a t or a d Sound at the end, so we add an extra syllable. Interesting.

Jennifer Glass [00:18:28]:

It’s definitely interesting as you’re thinking about all of those things. And then it’s also then, again, Part is also where someone is actually in the country again because there’s certain ways that you’re going to be even using different words. And, I mean, as an example, is it soda, or is it a pop? Is it a sport or is it a running shoe? It’s a pop.

Donna Durbin [00:18:58]:

Or in the south, we call it a Coke. Do you want a Coke? And a Coke is a general term for us for soda. We don’t use soda pop, but my grandmother was in New Jersey, And she always called it I think it was a pop. Right? Jersey soda. Jersey soda. Okay. Well, I just it was different than what I had grown up with. Right.

Donna Durbin [00:19:18]:

So it was it was like changing the vocabulary. Like British English, they call it a boot. We call it the trunk of a car. They call it a lift. We call it an elevator. So that’s vocabulary differences in cultures or in languages, Not so much in pronunciation. And that’s easier to pretty much pick up because you hear it and you will What? You’ll change that selection of the word differently than you will your pronunciation. But that’s like anything else.

Donna Durbin [00:19:50]:

It’s the vocabulary that your brain will pick up on faster because it’s like, oh, nobody knows what I’m talking about when I caught, like, the, Did you say the cab hawk instead of a garage or,

Jennifer Glass [00:20:03]:

you know, parking garage? Yes. Like, we drive on a parkway, but we park in a driveway.

Donna Durbin [00:20:11]:

That’s true. That’s true. And so you kinda have to laugh and have fun with it. And I tell my you know, you’re experimenting with the sounds, but the way we shape the sounds, How they come out of our mouth is the way we shape and hold our tongue and our lips, and the air, the amount of air. It’s like my French speakers We’ll put h’s where there are no h’s, but then they don’t put an h where there is an h. So hello becomes hello Instead of hello. And so that’s a very simple thing, but that’s a clue that I know you’re not a native speaker. Right.

Donna Durbin [00:20:48]:

It’s just identifying some of these things and then recognizing it’s a it’s a habit. It’s just an audit what? It’s almost like a reflex. And until you become conscious of it, you can’t change it. Like anything else, right, we have to become conscious of something before we can actually change it.

Jennifer Glass [00:21:05]:

Absolutely. I remember as a kid when I was in speech therapy, there were many things that the therapist was working with me on. And, like, the r’s that we were trying to do or, even when I had a stutter At one point, there were a lot of those different things that you’re trying to deal with. And, again, I mean, You are able to understand someone that couldn’t pronounce the r’s because there’s many people, especially here in the US. I mean, In England, it’s purposely not pronounced. But here in the States, we do pronounce it. Elsewhere in the world, they might not, but there’s all of those things again trying just to get that out. And, again, how do we get that to Makes sense.

Jennifer Glass [00:21:55]:

And it’s funny when you’re listening to a British speaker talk American English. And, I mean, just this morning, I was listening to something on the radio, and there was a British woman who was saying she was from New Jersey. And well, yes. New Jersey. And I got exactly where she’s from, but, Alright. You know, you missed the r, and then all of a sudden, she’s saying toy story. And it’s like, okay. So now she pronounces the r.

Jennifer Glass [00:22:27]:

So I guess it just depends on you know, sometimes you slide in and out of accents, and sometimes it’s also just, are you too tired? In which case, someone who was originally from the south or certain parts of the north, you’re going to naturally kinda slide into another way of speaking. And so that kinda creates additional, friction too, doesn’t it, with someone who’s trying to pick up on different pieces here?

Donna Durbin [00:23:00]:

Well, I can usually tell, and I and I tell my clients, even Americans, when we’re nervous or we’re emotional or we’re upset, we usually speak faster Than we do when we’re more relaxed and conscious of it. So many languages actually speak much at a much faster pace than English. Part of that is is because they don’t have as much of the stair step up and down. And they don’t put pauses between as many word groups as we do. So I think English is, like, 9th on the list. I think Japanese is first. I don’t remember whether Indian or Hindi, but there’s, like, a whole list you can Google. I don’t even know one of my clients told me this.

Donna Durbin [00:23:40]:

But we’re one of the slower paced languages. So when they think that fast means fluent, I have to tell them no. What you’re going for is comprehension. You want to be understood. So it’s not just how Fast you speak does not prove that you’re fluent. Because if you’re not communicating, if you’re not getting your message across and your listener is standing you you’re not communicating. It’s a two way it’s a, you know, it’s a complete sight it’s circle to be able to have the listener understand what you said, Then maybe even be repeat back to you what you said. So it does make a difference on you know, there’s a lot of variables that go into it.

Donna Durbin [00:24:24]:

But it’s not so much about well, it’s we call it code switching. So you speak differently to your son, And your son speaks differently to you than he does when he’s speaking to his teacher or to somebody he’s trying to impress. The same thing. When you put on your podcast voice, it’s a different voice than when you’re just speaking to your family Or to your friends. Because we do tend to relax. So I tell them, you know, part of it is is when you’re tired, your voice is gonna Default back to what that more relaxed state is. It’s just like when we’re exhausted. Even I do it.

Donna Durbin [00:25:03]:

I tell them, you know, if I’ve Had several clients during the day, and I have to really intentionally slow down and work hard at articulating everything that I say So that it can be easily understood. And so most of my clients say, I can understand you, but I can’t understand a lot of other English speakers. And I said, well, that’s That’s because some of them don’t speak clearly. A lot of people mumble like this. They don’t really open their mouth much, and they kinda Talk like this and don’t really use our lips very much. So that’s gonna harden Bob Dylan.

Jennifer Glass [00:25:37]:

Totally Bob Dylan. Yes.

Donna Durbin [00:25:39]:

Well and it’s like my grandson mumbles. And I kept saying just, you know, that’s a habit that no one actually that that they can come, but they have to work at it. It’s like going to the gym. You have to do it repeatedly for those muscles and that Consciousness to stay in place. Right. So it’s not rocket science, but it does take it does take repetition and practice. And part of it is knowing if there are some rules, like the 3 rules for past tense e d or when s is pronounced as z. And so when I Find these things that actually, like, who knew? I didn’t know there was a rule for this or a guideline for this, Then I will take that information and share that with my students because even I have had to become very, very conscious of, like, Why do we do it that way? And I’m not as worried about them knowing the rules as I am about them learning to listen and Tune in and be able to reproduce or mimic what they want to sound like than memorizing the rules.

Donna Durbin [00:26:46]:

Because that goes back to your analytical part of your brain, which wants a rule for everything, and it’s like, that’s not how you’re going to be able to to change the way you speak, the way you

Jennifer Glass [00:26:58]:

So let me ask you because you mentioned the s or the z. And I was thinking on that, m s It can be miss or it can be miss. Right? But there’s no clear reason why one would be one way or the other Other than to say, if someone is younger, they’re gonna be miss.

Donna Durbin [00:27:20]:

Well, that’s m I s s. Right? M I s s is miss, But MRS is misery, miss no. MR there is a rule for that, but I don’t really get into that much. But MS is like miss MS. Right? That’s like a general or m I is it MS? MS?

Jennifer Glass [00:27:37]:

Yeah. MS. But m h. It can also be, though, MS, like, if you’re addressing something to a child Mhmm. It could just be MS also. It doesn’t have to be m I s s.

Donna Durbin [00:27:48]:

I’ve never really looked at that. So that’s

Jennifer Glass [00:27:50]:

what you’re saying. An additional confusion like you were saying before. I mean, just the Mhmm. Same words in, was saying earlier also the tear and tear and then deer and deer.

Donna Durbin [00:28:02]:

How about IS? How do you say I s? Is. Okay. So why is it pronounced as z? That’s a very good question. Exactly. So I have several List of words, these small words we use that like, h I s is his, not his Because h I s s is hiss. Right. Right? So there are some of these things that I tell them you just have to memorize these. And these were things that kept popping up in my client’s speech that I’m like, I don’t I know it’s I know we say it differently than they say it.

Donna Durbin [00:28:38]:

And so there’s just some you have to memorize, that you just have to know that this is the case, but many of my clients that nobody’s ever told us that. Nobody ever corrected us. I said, well, for the most part, Americans won’t correct you because they don’t they’re trying to be polite For the most part, are they just hopefully, we’re being more tolerant and compassionate because that’s what I want to have happen is that English speakers need to recognize how challenging it is to function in another language. The work, the years, the amount of brain power. I mean, actually, they have an advantage over us because they have more neural pathways developed To speak a second language. And so rather than being prejudiced or biased about an accent, It’s actually to recognize that that they are doing something that most of us cannot do, which is function in another country, in another language. So rather than trying to correct them or or have that as being a disadvantage to give them the credit of what all it’s taken to be able Come and live in America and bring their skills and talents because most of the people that come here are the cream of the crop in these other countries. We are very fortunate to have such talented people expand the diversity in our companies and in our world, and to share that perspective with us.

Donna Durbin [00:30:07]:

So part of that is language. Part of it is culture. And to me, that enriches everything that makes the world more interesting and more varied and more beautiful Than it does if we were all the same.

Jennifer Glass [00:30:20]:

You know, I just wanted to throw out one other thing in terms of the funny way that we say certain things Uh-huh. And the word t h e. Okay. The. And it can also be if I’m saying it is the place to go. Right. I’m not saying it’s the place to go. But you could.

Jennifer Glass [00:30:40]:

I could. But if I wanted to stress it, then I would say it’s the place, and it’s not t h e e. Nope. In terms of that so, again, it’s just the whole idea. You know? How do you really pronounce? And this isn’t even for the Non English speakers trying to understand it. It’s even the English speakers, and we have our own idiosyncrasies for how we do it. So let me ask you, though, as we move away from the funny way of pronouncing words. I mean, you mentioned being in Thailand Yeah.

Jennifer Glass [00:31:17]:

And getting an understanding of how Being over there is really impacting you and trying to help everyone kind of understand it better. But how do you translate more of that, like, when you’re working with them here and you had your own experiences over there? Like, you mentioned The 5, Tones. Tones. Thank you. Sorry. I mean, there’s those 5 tones that you have, but then You try and match it to something here. Is there an easy way to kind of talk to that? And How did you also, though, decide that that was going to be the thing that was going to set you on the path to where you ultimately created your clear English coach practice.

Donna Durbin [00:32:10]:

Well, in I’ll start even further back. My In my art professional art life, I was always inspired by ethnic textiles. Textiles from other countries that had a more, different look than what I saw in America. I think only history that we have pretty much is quilts. We think of quilts and wedding dresses and christening gowns as something that carries that History or that generational connection of expectations or, associations. Whereas in, for example, in Indonesia, textiles really are the carrier of the spiritual nature of a human being. They’re fragile. They are vulnerable.

Donna Durbin [00:32:58]:

They breathe. I mean, they actually have so many traditions with Ikat and indigo and things that the language itself relates to from womb to tomb is what they look at it. So the traditions in those cultures have always fascinated me. And so I have traveled to these other countries and Recognize the value that or the expansion that it brings me into my life. So moving from that To things like going and, like, I speak a little Bahasa Indonesian. I speak a little Japanese. I speak a little Italian. I see anytime I’ve traveled, I Try to learn some of the language.

Donna Durbin [00:33:38]:

And just doing that allows me to greet the people To say a few things, to say I’m trying to learn to speak this, you know, and they seem to really appreciate it. And they’re very, you know, Very few Americans actually have that reputation of doing that. But for me, it was important to connect with the people. So coming back to having that be an expansion into when we think about DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, For the idea of the world being this 1 planet that we all share, language is is the way we communicate, But we’re more alike than different. It doesn’t matter what country you’re from. Every mother wants her child to do well. Everybody wants everyone to be healthy, to be happy. So it doesn’t matter whether you speak Spanish or Japanese or Thai or anything else, we are alike.

Donna Durbin [00:34:35]:

And for me, that traveling outside of the United States is what really enriched my life and let me Let me appreciate my own place in America, but also let me see what we’re missing that these other countries Have. For example, community or neighborhood respect or rituals or family, Which in many ways in America, we are raised to be self sufficient and, you know, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and be these independent thinkers, Which is a good thing too. But we could balance that with a little more connection and community and a sense of Appreciation and recognizing the value that every human being has. So for me, that travel actually gave me a better sense of myself And also the, I would say, the spiritual level of connection, which is what I think we all share. Doesn’t matter what language. And so when we show kindness or when we show consideration for someone, we’re actually being able to Extend that real part or the what I consider the important part of us. So if I can help level that field so that people can feel more comfortable in their own skin, And then be able to present their best self at work or at social connections or whatever. I may have gone off the track, Jennifer.

Donna Durbin [00:36:01]:

I don’t know. But what I’m realizing too is that growing up, my father was in the military. He was in the air force, And I moved 9 times by the time I was in high school. So many years, I started in a kindergarten and Had to move or I started in 3rd grade and had to move. Or, you know, these different things. And when I look back at that, I recognize that I was always like the new kid. Felt like the new kid in town. And it took a lot of effort to get out of my comfort zone to go and make friends and start talking with people, especially if you’re in small towns.

Donna Durbin [00:36:35]:

They’ve got their own group of friends, their own routines. And if you’re the new kid, you may be a curiosity for a while. But to develop a friendship, to develop relationships with people takes a lot of effort. And I tell my clients, Unfortunately, I think in America, we’re not it’s not easy for us to make good friends, are close friends. We’re friendly on the surface. We’ve got a we’re easy to you know, we’re we’re especially in the south, they say, you know, people are very friendly. We’re helpful, But I even have friends that I’ve had for over 20 years that have never invited me to their home. And in other cultures, that is unheard of.

Donna Durbin [00:37:17]:

And whether that’s our own ego or that’s our own status and prestige, I’m not well sure about, but I know that it makes an effort. And a lot of my clients will say, I don’t have any American friends. It’s hard to make American friends. And I will explain to them part of it is our culture. Part of it is it’s really different than these other cultures. We we don’t think in a, what would they say, a group mind or community mind. Whereas that’s different like in China, Indonesia, some of these other places. It’s a matter of survival that you have this group mentality, that you help stay together.

Donna Durbin [00:37:53]:

Whereas in America, it’s a little different than that. So that’s a cultural difference. But language, the way we speak in English, fortunately For us is the global language because, fortunately, they’re used to that as the business language. English is something that most companies learn Countries learn to speak so that they can function in our economy and in business and all. But if we had to learn Chinese, Where would we be as Americans? That’s about all I know in my Chinese. I was trying to look use Duolingo to learn that. But part of it is is realizing the what? The motivation that these other people have learned to speak English, and if I can help clean up or help Help them in any way so that they can feel more confident and they can be listened to and heard and their ideas can be shared. Then so that they’re not only that they have the technical expertise, but they also have the communication skills To be able to do well in their lives, I want people to have live the best life they can.

Jennifer Glass [00:39:09]:

Absolutely. And it’s really funny because none of this would have happened had it not been for the generation of the tower at Bavel where god had to disperse everyone and create the 72 languages.

Donna Durbin [00:39:25]:

I never thought about it, but yes. I guess that’s true.

Jennifer Glass [00:39:28]:

Yes. So you see, he created your job just so that you can help.

Donna Durbin [00:39:33]:

Thank you, god. So But, you know, essentially, because this was not my first profession. I was very passionate about my artwork, and it was all abstract. It was more conceptual. It was about being able to express things on a visual in a visual format that connected with meaning underneath. And yet I’m still using communication or language, but now it’s a spoken language, not a visual language. And so to me, it’s just been a natural progression for the love of other cultures and the other, you know, Countries that I’ve studied the textiles, I mean, that’s what I say was always dangled in front of me was a textile, and that’s what made me travel. That’s what god you know, it’s the carrot was a textile.

Donna Durbin [00:40:23]:

And so my whole life journey has been following these different Inner voices that have guided me. And so, you know, that’s why I did the art for as many years as I did. That’s why I, you know, I taught to supplement my art degree, which I’m grateful that I was able to do that. But I’ve also sold everything and put it in storage, 10 by 20 storage unit to go live in Thailand for 2 years because I wanted to have an experience of living in another country. And I went there because I could Do indigo dyeing, picking leaves, and making indigo dye because I could document the different weaving techniques because they still have a live Textile tradition. They grow their own silkworms and spin their own silk, reel their own silk to to weave with. So for me, again, it it got me over there partly because of the textiles, and partly it opened new opportunities in new doors that I didn’t know was gonna happen. I didn’t plan this, but it’s kind of the direction I’ve gone.

Donna Durbin [00:41:27]:

And so I feel still very, Well, enlivened and passionate and excited about what I do, and that to me is that I’m on the right path. So following I’d I’d you know, I think about it’s not just a job anymore. It’s more like a mission. But if this shifts and I lose interest in it, then it will be time to change again. And I think it takes a lot of courage to follow Your heart when there’s not necessarily any guarantee of money in it. I mean, being an art having an art degree, there’s no starting salary When you graduate with a master’s in fine art, unless you’re gonna teach in a university, and there’s very few teaching positions like that.

Jennifer Glass [00:42:13]:

Or if you can get the curator position in a museum.

Donna Durbin [00:42:17]:

They don’t make that much per you would think they would make Very well. But they do not make that much money. Probably, I don’t even know if they make as much as a teacher Okay. In the museums. So a lot of people have that. I just went to a lecture at the Museum of Fine Arts on this young man, Kehinde Wiley, who is the one who did the President Obama’s, portrait. And he has an outstanding monumental show At the Museum of Fine Arts, which traveled here, I think, from San Francisco. And again, going there as an an artist and having art background, I thought There is someone that has groomed him into this museum quality volume of work that most artists will never attain.

Donna Durbin [00:43:03]:

And he’s like only 46 years old. And he’s got these bronzes and, like, Billboard sized paintings and merchant merch. He’s got all kind of merchandise. He’s got a he’s got a studio in Nigeria, 1 in China, in Beijing, another one. And I’m thinking, okay. I don’t know who was his mentor who turn trying to train him. But there’s very few people that reach that level of visibility and recognition in what they do. And and more power to him.

Donna Durbin [00:43:38]:

I mean, he’s very, very talented and very hardworking. You can see that. But a lot of people that go into business for themselves never reach that, Steve Jobs level. But it doesn’t mean they don’t have a purpose and they’re not touching People to make a difference in their lives, and that’s what I’m doing. I’m not at this at the level that I’m doing, what is it? The, do not Duolingo. Well, Duolingo is an example like an app. I haven’t designed any apps, but I do have digital courses that I put time into and a YouTube channel that has Videos that actually help people with their mouth and tongue exercises and that I feel like is beneficial for everybody, Whether they can afford to have me as their private coach or whatever because I want to be able to share this with as many people as I can. So I’m Glad I have the opportunity to talk with you because it’s it gets me more in touch with why I do what I do.

Jennifer Glass [00:44:37]:

Absolutely. Yeah. So let me ask you. Someone who’s been maybe listening to this show that’s not a native English speaker. And, I mean, you hear all the time, oh, I learn English by watching Friends or watching YouTube, which is a great way to do it. You at least start picking up on some of the Mhmm. You know, what people say. But If you are going to give them 1 piece of advice, what would that be?

Donna Durbin [00:45:13]:

I think part of it is that you really have to tune in your ears And your abs observations more than we tend our senses that we don’t tend to listen we don’t tend to pay attention to as we get to be adults. So it really is about becoming very conscious and aware of yourself because it’s mimicking. When I was living in I stayed in Japan for a couple of weeks with a friend, and they were all speaking Japanese. And I didn’t know little Japanese, but I was able to greet this Japanese client that I had earlier with, which is, Nice to meet you. My name is Donna. And she was like surprised. She said, oh, you speak Japanese? I said, Skoshi. That’s a little bit.

Donna Durbin [00:46:00]:

Like Nitnoy is a little bit in Thai. So there are certain vocabulary that I still use. And Part of that immersion, being surrounded by it and listening, you might not comprehend it at the beginning, but you’ll start to pick up on the melody. You start to pick up on the where the intonation and the pauses are. So after 2 weeks of listening to Japanese and these sisters talking around me, And, occasionally, they would tell me a little bit about the topic that they were speaking, and then I could kinda follow. And so at one point, I went, Nay. Nay. So so so.

Donna Durbin [00:46:33]:

And they all stopped and looked at me and like, what? Did you understand us? And I’m like, I kept hearing that phrase over and over and over again, and it’s like, yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. It’s like, nay. Nay. So so so. So it’s like I just Interjected that into the conversation, but it just it stopped them because I said, this is what I’m hearing. I don’t have to understand everything, but I get a gist of what you’re saying.

Donna Durbin [00:46:58]:

And so part of that is in in Indonesia when I I was there for 6 weeks and Didn’t have anybody to speak English with. I had a little lonely planet or guidebook, just a little vocabulary book. But I was speaking to everybody. I learned 1 or 2 phrases and repeated them over and over and over again. So it’s about repetition. So No. That’s Jack that’s Ty. Excuse me.

Donna Durbin [00:47:25]:

Which is hello in Bahasa Indonesian. And how are you? Because everyone greeted everyone that they saw on the street. Whether you knew them or not, it was polite to greet the soul in me, greets the soul in you or the spirit in you. And so when I came back to the United States and was walking in my own neighborhood and said hello to somebody, and she jumps like this, like, who are you? I don’t know you. And I see that fear in someone’s face rather than a connection, human connection. It made me really sad that in our own country, in my own neighborhood, that I cannot just greet someone and say, good morning. How are you today? And they’re able to be receptive to that and respond back. Because I experienced that in in Indonesia, Asia, and they didn’t know me, but they greeted every single person.

Donna Durbin [00:48:19]:

So when I learned to greet every single person, then I felt much more part of I felt connected.

Jennifer Glass [00:48:27]:

Is that just the Texas thing? Because I know here in Jersey, I can If I pass someone in the street, I can say hello. I can say good morning. And 99% of the time, you’ll get a response back. I won’t do it in New York City because in New York City, you’ll just get run over. You know? I don’t even know if you’ll get that growl. You’ll seriously just get run over because you’re just in such a rush in Manhattan, especially as, like, Yeah. You know, don’t stop on a New York City sidewalk to do anything. You wanna stop and go in the street.

Donna Durbin [00:49:06]:

Okay.

Jennifer Glass [00:49:07]:

Oh. Oh, okay. That’s kind of the oddity. It’s like because on the sidewalk, everyone is just running.

Donna Durbin [00:49:13]:

They’re going. Yeah.

Jennifer Glass [00:49:14]:

And if you stop, you’re gonna end up getting plowed over. But, I’m just wondering if it’s, you know, the Texas that it’s not as

Donna Durbin [00:49:24]:

I think Texas is actually really very friendly. At least that’s what I hear from all of my clients is that Texas is a really friendly place, Or Houston at least because we’re a very international city. Right. Smaller towns, not so much. I mean, I grew up in, Well, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, California, you know, several places in those. And so for the most part, it depended whether people knew you or not. Smaller towns are much more hesitant to actually be warm and receptive. They seem to be more suspicious because they don’t know you.

Donna Durbin [00:49:57]:

But I think the cities Have more of an anonymity that they’re friendly and talk to you. But if you go to the grocery stores, I don’t think it’s necessary Texas, maybe it’s the individual themselves. But I do know that New York has that reputation. I’m not sure about other places, but when you go to the grocery store, do you greet everyone in the grocery store? No. Okay.

Jennifer Glass [00:50:22]:

I will, personally, for me, the people that work in the store, The ones that are most often seen invisible. I’ll at least say good morning or how are you, things like that just because That’s the way that I am. You know, just one of the things that I’ve said very often is you never know when somebody needs that Right. Human connection because they are so often overlooked. I mean, whether it’s the maintenance staff, the housekeeping team at a hotel, or if it’s whatever it may be. You know, there’s all of those people that you just saying hello, good day, good morning, whatever it is, can really make them turn the entire day around.

Donna Durbin [00:51:07]:

Oh, yes. Oh, well, anybody. I think that happens for me too. So, I mean, just Think about the world. If we were in a place where we could greet everyone, treat everyone with respect, and just say, hello. Glad to see you today. How’s your day going? You know? And be sincere about it. Just think about the the difference that we would have in the world because we’re working on connection Rather than this disconnect, which is apparently, you know, with COVID, it’s become even an epidemic of loneliness.

Donna Durbin [00:51:38]:

Right. So this idea of isolation and not connecting is much more common now Then it was the connecting. Actually, I think people are a little fearful of connecting. So we’re to overcome that. I mean, We’re gonna have to we’re gonna have to work it. We’re gonna have to change these habits or these behaviors that got into place. Even I joke that I need to be resocialized Because I’m sitting in front of Zoom all the time, all of my clients now are on Zoom. I don’t meet in person with them necessarily, but I’ve got them from all over the world, which I’m grateful for.

Donna Durbin [00:52:13]:

But at the same time, it’s not the same as being in the same room with somebody and shaking their hand or being in their presence so that you can share that energy. I mean, there’s something I think we need that. I think we really need that. Right. Missing that. But this idea of of Getting outside of our comfort zone and just being welcoming. You know? Like you said, a kind word a kind word is Go so far. So to try to build someone’s confidence and in and encourage them, words of encouragement.

Donna Durbin [00:52:45]:

We know we all need that. Doesn’t matter how old we are, how successful we are.

Jennifer Glass [00:52:51]:

No. Not at all.

Donna Durbin [00:52:52]:

Good day or bad day. We can never have more than we need of that. I mean, that’s like Having you can’t have too much love, can you? I mean, you know, you love people. I don’t wanna say, oh, I can’t love you because I’ve already got enough. You know? I no. I’d be open for that. Right. So changing,

Jennifer Glass [00:53:15]:

gears for a moment. If you were to have a time machine and you can go back 15 years, What would you tell yourself?

Donna Durbin [00:53:29]:

What’s what’s 15 years ago? 2000 8? What’s 15 years ago?

Jennifer Glass [00:53:34]:

Let’s just say 2008.

Donna Durbin [00:53:36]:

2008. Oh, That was the 1st year that I went to go live in Thailand. 15 years ago, I would’ve told myself to take more risks. Don’t be afraid. The universe is here to support you. There are people that’ll help you, And have fun. Have more fun.

Jennifer Glass [00:54:02]:

Okay. Do you think you would’ve listened to yourself?

Donna Durbin [00:54:07]:

I would have hoped that I did.

Jennifer Glass [00:54:10]:

Okay. I mean,

Donna Durbin [00:54:11]:

it’s still the things that I’m still trying to put in my life today. So it’s not so different, but I realized that it’s very easy to get into kind of a comfort zone where new things feel like too much effort. And so to be able to, like, to move or to Travel or to make new friends or those kinds of things. It’s like I have to kind of push myself a little more than maybe I did 20 years ago or 15 years ago. But I think we go through ebbs and flows of that. There’s times in our life where there’s It just it’s I mean, I was living out of a suitcase for almost 3 years. Because when I came back from living in Thailand, I didn’t have a place Stay. So I stayed with friends.

Donna Durbin [00:54:54]:

I did some house sitting. You know? I rented a room in a house for some with somebody. It took me, 4 or 5 years before I actually invested in another place for myself and got things out of storage where I could have Some of my own things around me. And I’m grateful that I did that, but, you know, I was ready to stay stable for a a little while. And now I’m getting the urge to To travel again. So I just talked to someone earlier that knows someone that has a company in Guatemala that they may need some buddy to come in that they work at the call centers and maybe come in and do some pronunciations. So I was telling her, I would love to go have an on-site Be there for 2 or 3 months and work with a company to do that. So now I’m feeling like I would really like to go to some other countries And have a a maybe either a position or something where I’m a visiting, professor or instructor, And work with some of the people that are learning to speak English there, and then I get a chance to do the traveling.

Donna Durbin [00:55:58]:

It’s like a win win. I get a chance to travel, get to make friends there, and get maybe a chance to brush up on my languages and have a chance for some more experiences of other parts of the world. That’s Been a goal of mine for a long time is to I think I’ve been to about 15 countries, I guess. But, you know, there’s a there’s a lot more that I haven’t seen than I have.

Jennifer Glass [00:56:21]:

Oh, absolutely. The world is a very big place.

Donna Durbin [00:56:25]:

So that’s that’s kind of a wish of mine. And and to bring more peace, I do think that when we speak the Same language and we can communicate. We recognize that we’re more alike than different, and maybe we can reduce some of the Unrest in the country and in the world. Right. So

Jennifer Glass [00:56:47]:

So let me ask you another question. When you’re thinking about the word success Mhmm. What does that mean to you?

Donna Durbin [00:56:59]:

Success to me means that I feel like I have I’m fulfilling a purpose, That I’m satisfying a a deep purpose in myself and being of service to other people As well as being able to provide an income for myself. I’ve always supported myself. So it’s been, You know, it’s it’s mostly on hard work, but, you know, you have to be I have to be consistent. I have to show up to do it, but I’ve been meeting a lot more entrepreneur young entrepreneurs lately. And what I’m noticing is that they seem to think this should happen overnight. And I see success as something that you You’re always on the journey to con you know, fulfilling it. It’s not an in it doesn’t you don’t arrive. It’s not something that you arrive with.

Donna Durbin [00:57:56]:

I think it’s an ongoing improvement or way of being able to achieve different things for yourself. But to me, it has to do more with being Contented and satisfied that what I’m doing is a has a purpose, is serving a purpose.

Jennifer Glass [00:58:12]:

So by that definition, then you would consider yourself successful?

Donna Durbin [00:58:16]:

Yes. I do.

Jennifer Glass [00:58:17]:

Good. So, Donna, let me ask you. People have been listening to this show for the last, give or take, 50 somewhat minutes, And they’re interested in connecting with you. How would they be able to do so?

Donna Durbin [00:58:33]:

Oh, you can go to my website, clear english coach.com is one way. You can look at my YouTube channel. I have a YouTube channel, Clear English Coach, Donna Durbin. They if they my website has several different courses available. In fact, like, on 4th, December 4th, I do once a month. I have a live coaching session that’s free. People can sign it for the 1st time free. And then if they wanna continue, it’s like a 6 a $10 subscription.

Donna Durbin [00:59:02]:

So there’s lots of ways. If people want to improve their pronunciation, I’d be happy to talk to them. So if you go to my website, you can schedule a discovery call. Reach out to me. Send me an email, [email protected]. It’s not hard. It’s just Clear English Coach is the It’s the logo and the name business name. So I’d be happy to hear from you.

Jennifer Glass [00:59:27]:

Thank you. And so, Donna, again, thank you so much for being my guest today. Oh, thank you. Thank you. So as we wrap up our conversation on English and the quirks and everything that we have, There’s so many different ways that you can start, really exploring, what you know about your own language, whether a native English speaker or not. I mean, Donna and I, during our conversation today, had a lot of interesting conversations like this word, that word. How do you Pronounce it. Why do we pronounce it this way? And sometimes we simply don’t know.

Jennifer Glass [01:00:07]:

And whether you are a Spanish speaker, a French Speaker, a German speaker, a Russian speaker, whatever language it is that’s out there. I mean, there’s so many languages and so many different dialects even in the same language that create All opportunities for us to be thinking, how does it actually make a difference, and how does what we say Impact, what it is that we’re trying to ultimately convey. Donna threw out a couple of ideas where, in Spanish as an example, They don’t pause as often as American English does. You can see exactly how that may make sense. It may not make sense. And if it doesn’t make sense, reach out to Donna. And you may be able to get a couple more ideas on how that can start making sense for you in your own way of looking at it and what it is that you’re trying to do. I know Personally, for me, every now and then, I do have to slow myself down.

Jennifer Glass [01:01:10]:

Donna said it herself too, where she needs to really, clearly enunciate Each word that she’s trying to say so that you can understand it. I was, when I was younger, accused of being the character 6 from the TV show Blossom Because, Jennifer, I and I had a really quick way of being able to go really quick. And I can speak pretty darn quickly when I really need to So people can still understand me, but sometimes you may need to actually slow it down just a tad so that you can actually get what I’m saying. I’m not trying to be the auctioneer at the auction house that’s trying Right. Go once, go twice, sold. Yes. There’s always that we can actually be sitting there and doing what it is that we’re trying to do. So think about what you wanna do.

Jennifer Glass [01:01:54]:

And if you need the help with English pronunciation. Definitely reach out to Donna as an ESL coach, as an English pronunciation coach. Even if you do speak English, there may be opportunities for you to have better enunciation or better ways of actually communicating where Donna may still have an opportunity for you to help you there as well. So, again, reach out to donnakelearenglishcoach.com. And on that note, this has been another episode of Mojo, the meaning of life and business. Donna, once again, thank you so much for being my guest. Until next time, here’s to your success.

Donna Durbin [01:02:34]:

Thank you, Jennifer. Have a great day. Absolutely.