Mastering Direct Mail: Insights from Travis Lee on List, Offer, Media Strategies & more

Welcome back to another episode of “It’s the Bottom Line that Matters”!

In today’s episode, we have a special guest, Travis Lee, who will be revisiting the world of direct mail. Travis, an expert in direct response marketing, shares his insights on the delicate balance between staying compliant and pushing the boundaries in regulated industries. We dive into the role of AI in content creation, exploring its potential and limitations.

Travis also shares valuable tips from his book, “The Simple Three Step Process That Insures Direct Mail Success,” guiding us on selecting the right list, creating effective offers, and utilizing the right media for our campaigns. Join us as we discuss the power of personalized messages, the rise of QR codes in marketing, and the art of crafting compelling copy.

Let’s get started, because in the world of marketing, it’s the bottom line that truly matters.

Keywords:

Travis Lee, legal compliance, attorney mailer, regulated industries, AI, human touch, quality of input, headlines, finalized content, images and artwork, LinkedIn messages, book, direct mail success, list, offer, media, valuable information, costly mistakes, data collection, personalized messages, computerized manner, out of category marketing, QR codes, warm list, lead generation, stepping stones, sales cycle, messaging, direct mail effectiveness, Amazon catalogs, sales and marketing, copywriter, swipe file, QR code adoption, personalized QR codes, clear call to action, compelling offer, copywriting skills

About our guest:

Travis Lee is a marketing enthusiast who recognizes the value of traditional marketing methods. While many people are abandoning TV, radio, and direct mail as marketing tools, Travis sees this as an opportunity to stand out from the competition. He believes that direct mail is still effective because fewer businesses are utilizing it, giving him a chance to reach potential customers in a medium that is often overlooked. Travis understands the importance of being where his competitors are not, whether it’s in the mailbox or online. In his personal life, Travis is a dedicated parent to two children, one of whom is going through braces and the other who will soon follow suit.

Transcript (auto-generated; may contain errors):

Jennifer Glass [00:00:01]:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of It’s the Bottom Line That Matters podcast, where we are dedicated to your success. You may have heard recently that we were talking about direct mail. We were talking about getting your message out there. And one of the things that you really need to be paying attention to is when you are trying to work with people to get them to know you, To trust you, to buy from you, they really need to be seeing you in a couple of different ways because they may not always be Clear, well, I’m ready to buy just because I got your email. Because well, yeah. How many times do you buy just because you got an email? So we have a returning guest with us who’s going to help us go more in-depth Into direct mail, into copy, and even integrating the digital and the offline piece to help you in your business. Before I bring Travis back on though, let me remind you who Travis is. Travis Lee is internationally known as the expert in getting direct mail delivered, opened and read as co founder and president of three d mail.

Jennifer Glass [00:01:16]:

He generates huge returns for thousands of businesses each year who uses innovative and effective marketing strategies. Welcome back, Travis.

Travis Lee [00:01:25]:

Hello, everybody. Great to be back, Jennifer. Great to be back, Patricia. And, hopefully, we can impart some more knowledge on your listeners here today on Old fashioned, stodgy direct mail.

Jennifer Glass [00:01:37]:

Yes. Absolutely. And thank you so much for coming back. So I wanted to start the conversation today. Just a reminder, If someone didn’t hear, you know, the last time you were on, why is direct mail so critical to a business’s overall success.

Travis Lee [00:02:01]:

You know, that’s a great question, and, you know, as we’ve seen over the years, A lot of people have gotten away from the quote, unquote more traditional marketing. Right? So you see less TV, less radio, less direct mail. And what’s so great about direct mail? Well, first off, because people are running away from it, that’s probably a reason for you to run towards it Because there’s less there’s less competition. There’s less people showing up in their mailbox right now. So it gives you an opportunity to show up Where your competition very likely is not showing up. You know, so if you go online, you know, let’s say you’ve got So I’ve got kids in the house, a teen and a preteen. Right? One’s in braces. One’s gonna go through braces.

Travis Lee [00:02:47]:

And now my wife starts searching for braces or Invisalign or anything like that. Well, now we’re gonna see every orthodontist within driving distance that’s online is gonna try to be serving us ads at that time. Right? Well, what if instead we got a list of everybody who has teen and preteen kids in our area, and we can mail them something, And now you’re the only orthodontist showing up at that time in that mailbox with that message, and so, You know, it’s the example I like to give is, let’s say, remember back in the day when there was actually door to door salesman? Right? And let’s say you got the the pot and pan guys coming around. He’s gonna sell you pots and pans, and he knocks on your door. And then you’re the vacuum cleaner guy, 2 totally different products, but now 5 minutes later, you come and knock on that same door, you’re gonna have a really tough time as that 2nd person in line To even get an audience, let alone make a sale. So with decreased competition with direct mail, your competitors probably aren’t there. If everyone’s running this way, it’s probably a good idea for you at least to look at least look this way and maybe take a step down that road there’s less competition, there’s less clutter, there’s less noise, and now you have an opportunity with that ideal prospect To deliver your message. So that’s essentially what we’re looking at now with direct mail is there’s just less competition.

Travis Lee [00:04:18]:

So imagine if you had a place to sell where none of your competitors where that’s where the mailbox is for a lot of people right now.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:04:26]:

Which is why even Amazon sends out a Christmas catalog.

Travis Lee [00:04:31]:

You’re a 100% right. You’re I mean, so Amazon now, especially if you have kids, Amazon has replaced Sears as the big catalog mailer. So now they’re not as you know, when we were kids, they you know, you got the 200 page catalog, and they had the furniture, and then they had the Apparel. And then way in the back, they had the toys, right, and the stuff all the kids would have. Right? Amazon now so they’re not again, they’re not mailing out these ones, but they’re mailing out I think the one we got last time was 24 or or 28 pages. You know, it

Jennifer Glass [00:05:02]:

it most small full.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:05:03]:

Week or so back, and it was, You know, it was a chunk. It the ones I got last year were, like, a fold over stapled thing.

Travis Lee [00:05:12]:

Yeah.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:05:12]:

This year, it’s you know, Actually got a spine on it, and it’s, you know, it’s getting thicker.

Jennifer Glass [00:05:19]:

So give

Patricia Reszetylo [00:05:20]:

them a couple of years, and they’ll have that 3 inch.

Travis Lee [00:05:23]:

Exact And and the thing so they’re sending out mail. Google is one of the largest mailers in the country. So if you were to go and look at the biggest mailers in the country, I’d say about a third of them would be considered online businesses. Well, what do they know that the rest of us don’t know? Well, they know that that’s a way to get in front of an audience, have a captive audience, have a way to be there, And I don’t know this. My guess is Amazon probably isn’t paying any of the money for that. They’re probably getting their vendors and their to pay for that. Right?

Jennifer Glass [00:05:58]:

So that’s another little secret.

Travis Lee [00:06:00]:

Right? So exactly. So, you know, this kinda goes bigger than just direct mail. It’s kind of off topic, but Can your vendors, can your suppliers help offset some of your marketing costs? Right? So we call it partner marketing, shared marketing, things like that. But you’re exactly right. Amazon is sending out real live catalogs, and so They’re I mean, they’re maybe not the smartest people in the world, but they’re certainly not dummies. Right? So what do they know that maybe some of us don’t?

Patricia Reszetylo [00:06:31]:

Well, they’ve got all of this data that they’ve been collecting for how many years. 1, they know what people want to buy. 2, they’ve been Iterating up their their mailing program.

Travis Lee [00:06:44]:

Mhmm.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:06:45]:

You know? So it’s not like they came out with a 3 inch Catalog Colorado to the Blue. They started with other things first, and they’re like, oh, look. We got a response from this. We’re gonna have to, you know, do more of this.

Travis Lee [00:06:57]:

And And my guess is, again, I don’t know their inner workings. I’m certainly not partial to it. But, again, they’re probably getting some partner money, And my guess is with variable printing so when we say variable printing, that basically means we can print a whole bunch of different versions and not have to reset. Right. So Patricia could get a catalog, and the last the first 2 pages could be different than Jennifer’s. My first 2 pages could be different than that, All based on our buying activity. You know? So I like I said, I have preteens and 2 I have tweens and teens in my in my house. Right? So there’s a lot of video games.

Travis Lee [00:07:33]:

There’s, you know, things like that. There’s less, you know, Anna and Elsa stuff now as they get older. Right? And so that 1st catalog that came Had, you know, all the Disney toys and all all the kids’ stuff, right, young kid Lego stuff, things stuff we’ve bought in the past. So, again, With variable printing and the data that we all should be collecting now with because it’s we can, you can create personalized messages for your folks, and for your prospects, especially your customer list. Right? I don’t think we spoke about that last time too much, but the goal that can be mined within your own customer is a huge potential for most most businesses. Everyone thinks when it’s time to go make sales, I gotta go get new customers. Well, with the data you’re collecting with variable printing, you can be shooting off almost a 1000 different messages to a 1000 different customers With that data that you have.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:08:30]:

Yeah. You just need to have a means of collecting enough data and some means of interpreting it, And it’s not like a person has to sit down and say, oh, Jennifer gets this one. Oh, Patricia gets that one. Oh, Travis gets that one. Oh, somebody else gets this one. It’s just it’s computerized.

Travis Lee [00:08:49]:

You got it. You got now, you know, you you gotta have a little bit of, you gotta have a way to collect all that data. You gotta have a way to sort it. But even for small businesses, that’s getting easier and easier.

Jennifer Glass [00:09:01]:

It really is when you think about how the process works, and, I mean, it’s just really funny because today on my group coaching session, that’s one of the topics we’re covering is going back to your existing customers and getting more transactions. But putting that aside, I mean, when we look at how we can Talk to these people. I mean, there’s also the idea of just going even into magazines where your competition isn’t and finding opportunities there too. Now that’s not direct mail, but just something to keep in mind. Like, just as an example, I’ll throw out. If you don’t have anyone competing in Golf Digest, and you have a product that is Heavy disposable income focused product. You wanna be in Golf Digest if your competition isn’t. Why? Because these people reading Golf Digest are golfing, which means they probably have disposable income.

Jennifer Glass [00:10:02]:

And so it’s important that you’re there If that’s what you’re trying to go after. So just keep that in mind. Like we were talking about the Amazon catalog in terms of how do you really Get more opportunities, and your partners may be able to help you there as well.

Travis Lee [00:10:16]:

Yeah. So we call that, yeah, we call that out of category marketing. I’ve got a great example of that. So we have a client. He, he’s in Pennsylvania, I believe the Philadelphia area, and they sell Everywhere from mid range to very high high end mattresses. Right? So we’re not talking, you know, the most expensive ones you go and see at your little local one, that’s kind of their middle of the middle end one. Right? And they sell very expensive mattresses. We’ve done a lot of direct mail for them over the years.

Travis Lee [00:10:47]:

However, one of their best places that they go to market is at wine shows. Why would they go to wine shows? Well, first off, there’s no other mattress salesman there. There’s no other home goods salesman there. Right? Nobody’s there, but their ideal Customer is there. So like you said, they’re not selling wine. They’re not selling wine refrigerators. They’re not selling anything to do with wine. It’s just that their ideal customer is a wine drinker in in large part.

Travis Lee [00:11:16]:

Right? And more ideally, a wine drinker with some disposable income because, again, they’re selling high end mattresses, and so where can you find those places where your customers are, but your cuss your competition may not be. So, again, we call that out of category marketing. Used to see it a lot when the yellow pages were big. So you would see, you know well, so the mattress guy might be in the chiropractic section if they would allow him to be. Right. Because if you’re having back issues, a lot of it can stem towards a mattress. So, again, are there creative, fun ways to get out there and find your customer That isn’t, you know, standing right next to your competitor.

Jennifer Glass [00:12:01]:

Thank you. So, Charles, let me ask you. Personalized links on direct mail pieces. Mhmm. A lot of people think that takes a whole lot of Craziness on the back end. Can you just give us a couple of ideas? Like, is that something that, a, you recommend that for what you do, and is it something that, people should be looking at in terms of personalized URLs going out on direct mail pieces?

Travis Lee [00:12:31]:

Yeah. It’s a good question, and it’s it’s something that was very popular, say, 5 or 6 years ago, and it was Fairly expensive, and we’ve actually seen the personal URL. So I’m you know, you’re talking about, let’s say, with, you know, migrateoffer.com/jennifer. Migrateoffer.com/patricia/travis. What we’re actually seeing now Is what we’re call is what are called personal QR codes, which essentially do the same thing. So now what we’re able to do, Again, with variable printing and technology is instead of having that big long URL, we’re able to put that into a QR code That only Jennifer gets or only Patricia gets or only Daniel gets. And so what we can do now is you know, most QR codes you you know, there A 1000 different places to make a QR code. Right? You go and you create it, and when someone scans it, that’s good, but we only know the aggregate.

Travis Lee [00:13:31]:

5 people scanned it, 10 people scanned it, 20 people scanned it. Well, with these personal QR codes, that QR code only shows up In a letter to the recipient. So this is kind of the next step of that personal of that pearl, that personal URL. QR codes have become mainstream the last 3 years. COVID was bad for a lot of things, but for, like, QR codes, they were great. Right now, even Even my parents who are approaching 70 know what to do with the QR code. Right? Whereas 3 years ago, they wouldn’t have any idea what to do with it. Right? And so now we can scan that QR code just like if they had typed in the personal URL, but instead they scan it.

Travis Lee [00:14:12]:

Makes it easier. There’s no Spelling mistakes are not gonna screw up anything. But just like a pearl, we know that Patricia scanned it, and we know when she scanned it, And we know from where she scanned it because we sent this direct mail piece out, and that cue that QR code only appears on that direct mail piece, and now we Now we can do a whole lot of things. Right? So let’s say it’s an existing customer list. We could do a phone call. We could send out an email. Let’s say, you know, If it’s a cold mailer, you maybe probably shouldn’t do those things because there’s do not call list and anti spam rules. But let’s say they scan it And they don’t take up the offer.

Travis Lee [00:14:49]:

Well, we can set up a thing now where they immediately get a follow-up piece. So maybe you sent out a letter for the orthodontist. They scanned, but they didn’t schedule. A day later, you have that postcard now of everyone who scanned their own personal QR code But didn’t schedule, we can now send them out a postcard. Now you may not wanna be so creepy as to say, hey. You scanned the QR code but didn’t schedule. But what you can do is say, hey. We wanted to make sure you saw this offer.

Travis Lee [00:15:18]:

It’s, you know, 20% off Invisalign or your 1st visit free, whatever the offer is. So, again, because of that technology that we have now, and, again, it goes back to that variable printing, we can do a lot of fun stuff with What we we used to do with pearls, we do with personalized QR codes now. So it’s it’s, it’s great technology, and, again, it allows you to track All the way to that end user, which is ultimately what we want. We wanna be able to attribute our direct mail marketing To every action. Who visited? Did they buy? Did how much did they buy over the long term? That’s what we’re looking to do. So that’s that’s kind of replaced the pearl and is now we’re going in the direction of personal QR codes.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:16:02]:

Well, it’s not that big of a jump. I mean, it’s just It’s it’s it’s the same exact thing. It’s just a different, you know.

Travis Lee [00:16:15]:

Just a different mode of getting there. Right?

Jennifer Glass [00:16:17]:

Right. Right.

Travis Lee [00:16:18]:

And I do think with the pearls, especially when they first started years ago, I think there was a little bit of creepiness to it because people would see their name in a in a URL, and they weren’t really sure. Right? And and so I don’t think there was Huge adoption for it partially because of that, but now you’ve got a QR code, and everyone just thinks it’s a QR code. Alright. I’m gonna scan the QR code to get my direct to get the menu, right, or whatever it is.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:16:43]:

Right. Scan the QR to get now. By looking at it that mine’s any or the Daniels or yours or anybody else.

Travis Lee [00:16:49]:

A 100% right. So it’s that kind of creepiness factor goes down, but then as marketers, we still get all that great data. That’s what we’re looking for.

Jennifer Glass [00:16:58]:

We sent them somewhere. On that QR code landing page, would you say Welcome, Travis, or would you just be playing it blindly?

Travis Lee [00:17:09]:

Yeah. So The technology that we have for that doesn’t quite go to that level where you can do it with the where the landing page can be personalized. There are technologies out there. Again, I probably would lean against it because, again, of maybe kind of the creepiness factor of it. And then, you know, the personal you can take personalization, I think, too far sometimes. Right? And so I probably wouldn’t. Again, because I don’t know that the technology is

Patricia Reszetylo [00:17:43]:

But it might also be kind

Jennifer Glass [00:17:45]:

of angst.

Travis Lee [00:17:47]:

Very true.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:17:47]:

If it if it’s cold and I’ll just find cold. So I walk into a restaurant, I’ve got a card that says, you know, whatever. Let’s say it’s a discount or something and I scan it and it says, hello, Patricia, whatever. I might be a little creeped out. However, if I’m at an event and I know I’ve already checked in, You know? And so I know that their system knows who I am, then I probably wouldn’t be as creeped out.

Travis Lee [00:18:15]:

I think there’s a a lot of truth that. Right? Especially if you have an established relationship with folks. Right? So if it if it’s you’re if you’re going after your current customer list, Again, to be very simplistic about it, they bought peanut butter but not jelly, and now we’re sending them a postcard to buy jelly. Right? And now right? And so now that I think I think there’s some absolute truth to that. But, again, those personalized QR codes, as far as the recipient knows, they just scan the QR code. Right. Now maybe in a couple years, the consumer gets on to that. Maybe they start scanning stuff less.

Travis Lee [00:18:48]:

I don’t know. But, You know, for now, we see those QR codes, and it’s almost like, oh, where’s my phone so I can scan it? I don’t even know if I want this thing, but I wanna scan the code now. Right? We’ve all you know, 3 3 years now, we’ve been conditioned to scan codes when we see them.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:19:01]:

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, I always I I have a client who was saying, want a QR code. Are you making the QR code now? And I’m like, okay. Hold your fire. 1, the QR code has to be for a thing. We don’t just make a QR code. 2, we also need a call to action on this QR code.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:19:22]:

It’s not just you Plunk a QR code there and assume people know what it is that they’re supposed to do and why they’re doing it. You still have a call to action, you know? Get your download here, Stan, and,

Travis Lee [00:19:33]:

you know, immediate nail or whatever. Right? Yeah. Yep. You still need All you know, there there is no magic bullet in marketing, whether it’s a QR code, a personal URL, it doesn’t matter. We still we need to have a good offer, need to have Call to action. We need to tell them what to expect, what to do. Now in some cases, it might be, you know, free appetizer, scan me, Right? If you’re to a restaurant and that’s probably good enough for that. You know, so you still there again, there’s no magic bullet.

Travis Lee [00:20:03]:

You’ve got to explain it to them. You’ve gotta tell them. Yep. It all goes back to just marketing 101, which is WIIFM, what’s in it for me. And so as something as simple as taking out that phone and scanning it, What am I going to get out of it? Well, again, restaurants, if I wanna see the menu, I’ve gotta scan the QR code. Well, that’s what’s in it for me. If I need to order something, that’s how I’ve gotta order it Alright. And I’m not a you know? I think for most restaurants, it’s probably a huge money saver.

Travis Lee [00:20:32]:

Printing printing menus is really expensive, Right? For a lot of

Patricia Reszetylo [00:20:35]:

the restaurants.

Travis Lee [00:20:36]:

And so Yeah. You know, where can you use this technology in your business, and where is it appropriate?

Daniel McCraine [00:20:42]:

Especially if you’re a farm to table restaurant where your menu changes every week.

Travis Lee [00:20:46]:

Uh-huh. Yeah. And so now you’re trying to print everything. Yeah. Yeah. You’re a 100% right.

Jennifer Glass [00:20:52]:

And the other thing is also with dynamic pricing now in restaurants. The QR code allows for that to happen so much easier than a printed menu. Yeah. It’s not even have breakfast, lunch, dinner, priced menus. You know? It’s just I just tack on, you know, another price, you know, at this time.

Daniel McCraine [00:21:09]:

So, Jennifer, what I hear you saying is between the time I create the QR code, put it on the postcard, and mail it out, I’ve got a couple of days if I change my mind and go, oh, that’s a really Stupid offer. I’m gonna go change it.

Travis Lee [00:21:22]:

Yep. You’re exactly right. You’ve got some you’ve got some wiggle room in there. That’s for sure.

Jennifer Glass [00:21:27]:

Yeah. Yeah. So alright. So we covered the personalization. We covered things along those lines, and even some of the ways that you can Connect the digital and the offline world.

Daniel McCraine [00:21:41]:

Mhmm.

Jennifer Glass [00:21:41]:

But if we’re looking at getting Somebody, though, to actually take action. A lot of that is gonna be based on the offer. It’s gonna be based on the audience. It’s gonna be based on the timing that it’s being made. How do we really get that clear? And if we’re not good at copy, how do we Start, you know, going down that path.

Travis Lee [00:22:06]:

Yeah. It’s a great question. So when it comes to your offer, you’ve gotta think to yourself. Alright. 1st off, cold traffic. Am I going after new people, or am I going to my existing list? So there’s kind of that first fork in the road. A cold list won’t take that bigger first step as much as a warm list will. Right? So you’ve gotta think, 1st off, who is my audience, and what is the next logical step that they will take based on My offer.

Travis Lee [00:22:37]:

So if I’m selling a complicated financial investment thing, let’s I’m a financial planner, I’m an insurance agent, And it’s a relatively complicated thing. It’s not just, you know, hey. Buy a mutual fund. Put some money in it. Let it grow. Right? It’s it’s more complicated than that. Well, if I’m going to my existing customers, I might be able to ask for a meeting in that very first step because they know me. They trust me.

Travis Lee [00:23:04]:

There’s some there’s, you know, there’s that know, like, and trust factor. But if I’m gonna go out to a cold list And it’s a relatively complicated sale or it’s a sale that has a long, you know, a long sales cycle or a long tail. You see this a lot in, like, b to b in the b to b space. Right? There are some impulse buys buys in the b to b space just like there are in the consumer space. But let’s say I’m selling, you know, Upgraded Internet phone systems to a company that has a 1,000 plus employees. Well, my offer probably shouldn’t be, Hi. I sell upgraded phone services. You should call me and buy.

Travis Lee [00:23:41]:

That’s too big of a step. The intermediate step is probably, hey. Join us here. Get your free white paper. Join us for a webinar. Here’s a book we wrote. And so the when you’re doing your marketing, whatever it is, online, offline, direct Mail doesn’t matter. What is the next you need to ask yourself, what’s the logical next step that this person would need to take To get to my eventual offer.

Travis Lee [00:24:07]:

Right? So we’ve got person here, and we’ve got my offer here. What are the steps along the way that that person needs to take in order for me to get where I eventually want them to get. Most people let’s say there’s 4 steps, They go immediately to step 3 and 4. They completely skip step 1 and 2 because it’s too big of a leap. It’s too much of an ask. You know, again, You like going out on a 1st date and asking for marriage? Does it happen? Sure. We probably you know, we all have those we all have friends. We’ve all watched the movies where they fall in love at first sight, and but that’s how many is that? 1 out of a100, 1 out of a1000, 1 out of a1000000? That’s what you’re asking your people to do.

Travis Lee [00:24:51]:

So you need what’s the next logical step? For most businesses that I come encounter, come in, come in contact with most businesses I consult with. It’s usually some kind of lead generation offer. Now If you’re a restaurant and you’re selling you know, let’s say we get a list of everyone who has a birthday. We’re recording this in November. Let’s say we get a list of everyone who has a birthday in November, And we’re gonna send them a free meal for the for the birthday, boy or girl. Right? Well, we don’t need to really lead gen for that. People understand what a free meal is on your birthday. That is a one step.

Travis Lee [00:25:28]:

Right? There’s we get it. There’s not it’s not complicated.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:25:31]:

And it’s not like it’s a huge investment either upfront or, you know, behind. So, I mean, it’s it’s the difference between, Let’s say buying a new copier going back to our b to b thing. Buying a new copier is kind of a one and done depending on the copier. Right?

Jennifer Glass [00:25:50]:

Mhmm.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:25:51]:

And installing that phone system. I mean, after they buy the phone system, then they have to install it and that’s gonna Cause disruption. It’s gonna take time. It’s gonna cost money to do that.

Travis Lee [00:26:04]:

Yeah. And so that’s why Having a webinar. Hey. The the down and dirty secrets of installing a new phone system. What does it really mean? What’s your downtime? What’s your uptime? What is the right? Because if you’re selling to that CFO or that COO of a 1000 person company, they’re gonna wanna know all that before they ever even consider you. So, Again, what are those stepping stones along the way that they need to take in order to get to eventually what you want? So, you know, Whenever I do anything like this or you go to my website, almost everything starts with get something from me for free. Get a lead magnet. Get a book.

Travis Lee [00:26:43]:

Get a class. Get a webinar. Something like that because most people that in are introduced to me don’t know what they want, don’t know what they need to do. Right? And so we’ve gotta coach them up on that. So we’re I’m a big fan of lead generation marketing, especially if you’ve got if you’ve got more than 1 step in that sales cycle, you probably need lead generation marketing.

Daniel McCraine [00:27:04]:

Today. Yeah. Now, Travis, one of the things that I found I I love how you’re laying this out, step by step through the the process.

Jennifer Glass [00:27:12]:

One of

Daniel McCraine [00:27:13]:

the things I found with Small business owners, especially, is they think more in terms of sales, which is fine. So So I I make the appointment. I’ve got my discovery call, whatever it’s gonna be. I’m doing my demo of my product, and then we close the sale, And so they have a really hard time connecting the dots, from, hey, I’m my prospect at the very beginning of the the cycle now. So I I have found to work with them backwards Actually, it’s easier for them to understand. So before someone comes into the store to see the demo, what do they need to know or do? And then before that, what’s the decision before that? They need to know or do before they can even do that. And so by working backwards, we can figure out, are there 2 steps? Are there 3 steps? Are there 7 steps that are between attractive prospect and Give them the demo.

Travis Lee [00:28:11]:

Great. I think that’s brilliant. Right? And so, you know and I’ve heard that, you know, Start with the end in mind. I think there’s a book titled out there. Right? And then you work backwards from there. I love that idea. And what’ll end up happening is you’ll have that end in mind, And then you’ll create 1 step, and you’ll think, okay. I’ve got the 1 step.

Travis Lee [00:28:31]:

And then you’ll okay. No. I actually need 2 steps and then 2 steps. And I’m not trying to say you need to make a 6 week sales cycle, 6 months. Right? And in fact, often when you put those little stepping stones in there, it can compress it because now that person knows what they need. They know what they want. They’ve been explained the process. And, again, it depends a lot on how on your business, on your industry, what you’re selling.

Travis Lee [00:28:56]:

If it’s a complicated sale, then you need more little stepping stones in there. If it’s coming for a free birthday dinner, we can probably get away with 1 step on that one.

Daniel McCraine [00:29:06]:

Yeah. Right. And and this is what marketing agencies have told me is that when we take that message that’s part of the Sales conversation, because the small business owner knows what it takes to close a sale. They’ve figured that out. Otherwise, they wouldn’t, still be in business. So we take that messaging from their their sales conversation and we start to walk that backwards, and now suddenly we we start to what the marketing message is, and I’ve had marketing agencies tell me, you know, if the client would just come in with that information, They could save us so much time. They could save themselves so much money, because we’re creating a marketing message From their sales message, which they know works.

Travis Lee [00:29:50]:

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s that’s often what we’ll see too is Buried in their business is good marketing stuff. Right? It’s it’s the salesman that knows how to it’s the salesman that knows the 32nd hook To tell somebody what they do. And he’s the only one saying it. He or she’s the only one saying it. Well, could that be your message at the very beginning of this thing? Right? And so, and then that’s kind of the difference, I think, between, say, like, a sales dominated business And a marketing dominated business. Right? So you’ve got you know, there there are industries where you’ve got sales reps and they’re outside pounding the pavement, and then you’ve got other where they’re marketing initiatives.

Travis Lee [00:30:33]:

The best businesses, especially as you grow, do both very well. The marketing brings them into a good salesperson, and then in the Sales process, you know, the first 2 or 3 steps might be the marketing. The last 2 or 3 steps is now that face to face interaction with the sales team, yep, If that’s what the business wants. And, you know, in most I’ve only ever owned b to b businesses. I’ve only ever sold to other businesses. And so Along that way, what you wanna you want your marketing to raise their hand to say, yes. I’m interested, and now you’ve got you know, I’ve got a salesperson right over here who takes phone calls all day. She’s the responsible for those last steps or 2.

Travis Lee [00:31:11]:

It’s my job to get them on the 1st 2 or steps 1st 2 or 3 steps, and then my sales team finishes the last 2 or 3 steps. That’s kind of what we do here, and we try to get marketing and sales to be we’re a small business. We don’t have a huge team, so it’s a little easier. But that’s what you want. You want The marketing to funnel to the sales, and it’s just kind of this stream that goes all the way through.

Jennifer Glass [00:31:37]:

Perfect. And, I mean, that really helps so many times. I mean, just focusing on some of the little things that you really need to be doing to keep the process moving forward. It’s, again, the whole buyer’s journey and the stuff that you need to be taking, in that regard. But let me go back a step, though. So How do you and let’s go back to my original question. How do you start finding someone if you really aren’t good at writing the copy? Because, You know, we can write something, and we can be like, oh, yeah. We’re the greatest things in sliced bread.

Jennifer Glass [00:32:16]:

But you know what? Nobody’s gonna believe that anymore because everyone’s so overhyped everything. I mean, it’s like some of the words that you keep on seeing, the best number 1, whatever, and, you know, where is it rated the best? Who’s actually telling you you’re the best? Things along those lines, but everyone is the best. And I laugh. Like, I ask people what sets you apart. We have the best customer service.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:32:38]:

And What does that even mean? Yes. It doesn’t mean anything. Right.

Jennifer Glass [00:32:44]:

So

Patricia Reszetylo [00:32:44]:

Does it mean you answer the phone or does it mean you actually resolve things for people?

Jennifer Glass [00:32:49]:

Yes. Well, here’s our client. If you have a journey,

Patricia Reszetylo [00:32:52]:

we’re waiting for clients say we have

Jennifer Glass [00:32:54]:

the best customer service because x, y, and z. Yes. But going back though to the question, if that’s how I normally would write my copy if I’m a small business, How would I find a good copy person to make it that somebody’s gonna actually believe what’s written and want to buy.

Travis Lee [00:33:17]:

So, I mean, I am a firm believer that over time, Most business owners are probably their best copywriters over time, but the thing is you gotta learn how to do it. Right? So you’ve gotta You’ve gotta put the time in. You gotta have classes and go to courses and read books. Fortunately, I was able to do that. Right? So over time, yes, I think you I I really do think if you’re willing to learn it, that’s the way to go. As far as finding copywriters, boy, it it it’s it’s not easy. Right? It’s it’s not easy finding, You know, good qual I mean, think of it any aspect of your life. Right? I have yet this isn’t to beat up on web people, But I have very few people I know are really excited about their website, guys.

Travis Lee [00:34:07]:

Right? Yeah. They get things done. They get it done on time, and there’s no back and forth. Right? And so first off, use reputable vendors. We do copywriting. If we’re not the best fit for you, we can recommend people to you, So, you know, use your sphere of influence. Who’s writing for you? What are you doing? How are you finding these things? Right from swipe files. So what is a swipe file? A swipe file is a collection, whether it be digital or actual physical, Of all the marketing that you see that you like.

Travis Lee [00:34:41]:

Right? So if you looked at it and thought, boy, that’s really good, or, boy, that’s intriguing, or, boy, that got me to buy, You should start collecting these things. Again, whether it’s digital I’ve got boxes full Of direct mail pieces that I’ve collected over the last 10 or 12 years of things that I like. Okay. I like this envelope. I like the way it was delivered. I like these headlines. And now you start to collect these things and you start seeing what works for you, and now you can now go out and see okay. So let’s say I you collected a whole bunch of either direct competitors or indirect competitors.

Travis Lee [00:35:21]:

Right? And now you’ve kinda collected what they’ve done. You can then hand that over to a competent copywriter and say, hey. I like these headlines. I like these ideas. I like these riffs. I like these, you know, whatever it is. And so I think a big part of it, if you’re not willing to learn it on your own, which I get, there are things that are not worth your time as a business owner. Right? We all have those.

Travis Lee [00:35:43]:

We should all be working on our top 20% of our things that we’re good at, and the bottom 80%, we should be farming out, handing out, finding employees to do it, finding other people to do it. But then but then you need to ask those folks, hey. Have you worked in my industry? Can you show me some examples of what you’ve done? Right. And so I’m a big into, obviously, Dan Kennedy direct response marketing. So if I see stuff and they’re doing Big logos with lots of pictures and catchy little sayings. That’s probably not the right person to do my copywriting. But if I see them and they’ve got direct response elements and they’ve got call to action and they’ve got, you know, a lead generation magnet, right, Now I’m going to say, okay. This is the right person for me.

Travis Lee [00:36:28]:

So it’s, it’s a tough answer, but the biggest thing is You maybe don’t have to know how to write great copy, but you gotta be able to look at and identify good and great copy. So kind of One of the things I like to tell people is every time you see, like, an ad that you like, whether it’s a you should be on, like, everybody’s mailing list. So if you’re watching TV and they’re like, go here and request more information, go and request more information and then see what they send you. See what emails they send. See what phone calls if they make any. See what direct mail they send. And that’s how you can start collecting this Swipe file. And now you can take that to somebody and say yeah.

Travis Lee [00:37:09]:

So I’ll give you a great example. If I was in the financial planning space, I would go and find all the big boys in the financial planning space who were doing direct response marketing. I’d get on their list. I’d collect everything that they were doing, and then I’d hand that to a copywriter and say, this is the kind of stuff that I need. I need direct response copywriting, direct response ads, lead magnets. Now can you do that for me?

Patricia Reszetylo [00:37:37]:

And keeping in mind that some of these industries, you still have to run it past the attorney, Make sure it’s, you know, legal. You’re not gonna get yourself in trouble for saying this instead of that.

Travis Lee [00:37:50]:

That’s why I like industries where they don’t have to deal with that. Finance is always Doctors, financial planners, insurance agents, We’ll do it, and we do work we’re putting the final touches on an attorney mailer right now for a client, but you gotta have all that gobbledygook at the bottom. Right? Yeah. And so it’s So

Patricia Reszetylo [00:38:09]:

yes. Cook and make sure that it passes muster and doesn’t inadvertently promise something that maybe they should

Travis Lee [00:38:17]:

So I told this attorney when we started. I said, I’m gonna write how I write, and if and when we pass the line, Then we’ll draw it back. So depending on what your compliance people tell me, depending on what you’re right, then we’ll kind of draw it back. So, you know, it’s a delicate balance with those industries. You wanna be at the line, but you don’t wanna be over the line. Right? And there’s, again, there are some things that are obviously you can’t do. Right? I can’t If I’m an attorney, there’s certain things I can’t say. If I’m an investment guy, there’s certain things I can’t say.

Travis Lee [00:38:49]:

And and once you’re in those industries, You get to know them. However, I do find that most business owners in those industries where they’re regulated like that, They wanna go to the line, but they’re actually, like, 6 miles from the line, and we can actually go quite a bit closer to that line than they think. Yeah. Now it’s just a comfort now it’s just a comfort level them.

Jennifer Glass [00:39:09]:

Right. I went into that when I’m dealing with clients when we’re rewriting their LinkedIn profiles, and we run into compliance. Well, no. Compliance is never gonna allow us to say that, and then we actually ask compliance Rather than asking in advance, when you present it, compliance comes like, oh, yeah. That’s fine. It’s just if you ask in advance, compliance is always gonna say Way know how are you gonna write something like that because we don’t know exactly where it’s gonna go.

Travis Lee [00:39:36]:

So you

Jennifer Glass [00:39:37]:

do it after the fact, and all of a sudden, it’s so much easier. Patricia, I know that you had something that you wanted to go into.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:39:44]:

I did, and I don’t remember what it is now. My apologies. Alright.

Jennifer Glass [00:39:50]:

Yeah. So let me ask another big one, and that is using AI in the whole marketing and specifically the direct mail and copy piece of it. What is your take as it comes to using AI for us to, you know, do that? I mean, Generative AI is one of the big things out there right now. Mhmm. And, you know, it’s only gonna be growing over the next several years. So I’m curious to get your take as someone who’s really big in this space.

Travis Lee [00:40:24]:

Yeah. So AI, I’ve dabbled in it. I’m certainly no expert in it. Here’s my experience with it. It is not the be all end all. So you will not be able at least right now, with with my experience with it, You will not be able to go to chat GPT or any of these other places and say, write me a sales letter for x, y, z. Now what you can do is use that use that to kind of plant the seeds. Kind of use it for that first 10, 20, 30, 40% of your letter.

Travis Lee [00:40:58]:

So or whatever it might be. So you, you know, you might the thing that I found is The output that you get from it is only as good as the input that you put into it, so you need to coach it. So I use we use chat GPT for a lot of different things, But I need to feed it good information. So if I just say write 5 catchy email subject lines for a Restaurant or a orthodontist. It’s gonna come back with what it thinks to be 5 catchy Email subject lines. But if I feed it okay. You are a direct response copywriter. You have been tasked with writing a, b, c, x, y, z, whatever it is.

Travis Lee [00:41:41]:

You wanna be riding in the style of whoever that person is. Right? And now you feed it good information. It will give you back better information. So it’s good for kind of that base layer, but still you need that human element because When you read it when you read something that’s generative from AI, you can almost feel it. You can I mean, you can you can read it? You can feel it. It doesn’t Flow, it just doesn’t have that human element. So, you know, so one of the things that we’ll do, in fact, the client I just told you about, I don’t I don’t I think you would be okay with this. We’ll say it there.

Travis Lee [00:42:18]:

We wrote a letter. Right? So we got a 3 or 4 page letter. We feed it good information, And then we tell AI, write me 10 catchy clickbait type headlines for this sales letter. And now it gives us 10 of them. And now okay. So I like elements of this one. I gotta do this one. I gotta do this one.

Travis Lee [00:42:38]:

So you still need Again, it comes back to what input are you putting in, and then it still needs that human touch. It’s not going to give you a a finalized ready thing to go. I have not used AI at all when it comes to, art and pictures and images. I’ve I’ve only used it in the, In the chat GPT type style, so I won’t even get into the images and that kind of stuff, but You need that human touch. It’s still you’re not gonna be able to copy paste it, put it into an email, and it’s gonna look good. You’ve gotta you still need that element of it That it that a computer right now just can’t do. 5 years from now, after I’ve used chat GPT for 5 years And I’ve said it all kinds of information over 5 years?

Patricia Reszetylo [00:43:27]:

Yeah.

Travis Lee [00:43:28]:

Alright. Maybe then it can. But right now, there it it You still need to massage it. It’s gonna be great for that base layer, but you still need to add you you it’s not gonna do the things that you want it to do A 100%. It’s gonna get that 20%, and then you gotta add add to it.

Jennifer Glass [00:43:47]:

Thank you. Daniel, Patricia, anything you guys wanted to add there?

Patricia Reszetylo [00:43:55]:

No, that’s been my experience with it.

Daniel McCraine [00:44:01]:

No. I was just gonna say oh, wait. You mean those LinkedIn messages I’ve been getting lately were written by Chad GPT, not by a non English language speaker, translator?

Travis Lee [00:44:12]:

Yeah. Oh. Very likely.

Jennifer Glass [00:44:16]:

Especially when they’re coming from 2 different companies with the exact same text.

Travis Lee [00:44:21]:

Exactly. Yes.

Jennifer Glass [00:44:22]:

I love that.

Patricia Reszetylo [00:44:24]:

You have such a fabulous work history. We think you should do this. And I’m like, there’s no work Three, there’s business history, but no work history there. Yes. Of course, maybe I’m defining work differently. I don’t know.

Jennifer Glass [00:44:40]:

Yeah. So, Travis, first of all, I wanna thank you again for coming on the show again and giving us so much more Valuable information. I think we’re gonna have to have you back for you at a 3rd time because there’s still so much that we can really go on. But, you know, because wanna make sure for our listeners, we’re paying attention to their time as well as yours. So thank you again. Tell me more though. I know that you’ve got a book that helps people start getting information. How can they Learn more about the book and know more about you.

Travis Lee [00:45:17]:

You bet. So I’ve got a book. It’s called the Simple Three Step Process That Insures Direct Mail Success. We talked Actually, over the last 2 calls, we’ve probably talked at least a little bit of the high points, but when it comes direct mail when it comes to direct mail, there’s only 3 things. There’s list, There’s offer, and then there’s what you actually send. So list offer media. We talk about these in-depth in this book. We talk about how to select a list, what kind of lists are available, how much should you be spending.

Travis Lee [00:45:45]:

We talk about offers. So we talked about that Quite a bit at the beginning of the call. So we talk about kind of that stepping stone thing. What makes a good offer? How do you get them to take the next step? And then we also talk about the media. What do we want to send? How do we send it? When do we send it? What’s the timing? And so if you’re just getting into direct mail, this is going to be great for you. If you’re a direct mail veteran, I still think there’s stuff to get out of it, But if you just go to my website, it’s just my name, travisalee.com. Travis, the letterale.com. You can get a copy for I think it’s around 3 or $4.

Travis Lee [00:46:22]:

Get a copy, cover the shipping cost, and we’ll send you a free a free version of that book. Usually arrives in 3 to 5 days.

Jennifer Glass [00:46:30]:

Thank you so much and definitely go to Travis a lee.com. Get that book because it’s going to really help you in the process when you’re trying, like Travis said, looking at all those different high points, but really drilling down a bit so that you know more of what you’re doing. One of the worst things you can do is go into something without knowing what the risks are and, losing a fortune because you’re doing it wrong.

Travis Lee [00:46:58]:

Yeah. We call it playing blind archery.

Jennifer Glass [00:47:00]:

Yes. Exactly. I was just going there. Way too many people throw stuff against the wall, but, you know, blind archery is much better. Ouch. Yeah. Yes. And So there’s so much there that we really need to be paying attention to and really thinking how you’re going to be getting the most value for your time and your investment that you’re putting into any particular campaign.

Jennifer Glass [00:47:26]:

So certainly, reach out to Travis, Find out more, get that book, reach out, get to know him, follow him on, any of the various social channels as well, where you can Fine, Travis, because, Travis and his dad, Keith Ali, they’re both incredible geniuses at what they do. I’ve been in both of your camps for a while now, and, so, you know, certainly, thank you. Thank you so much. Additional training. Yes. And, you know, being part of Dan Kennedy’s group as well, you know, there’s so much there, also. So keep in mind though, Know the mentors that you’re gonna be following, know the people that can help you figure out what you need to be doing. You’ve been listening to this show to give you those ideas That can really help you catapult your business.

Jennifer Glass [00:48:17]:

We try getting those kinds of guests on here as well as what Daniel and Patricia and I do Regularly helping you really figure out what you need to be doing to bring your business, as my tagline is, bring your business to new heights. We need to really be helping each other, knowing exactly where we’re going. Having direct mail as one of the pieces in your arsenal is one of those Things that can certainly help you get there on that note. This has been another episode of us, the bottom line that matters. And until next time here’s to your success.