Strategic Leadership to Help Grow Your Business & Community

What is “leadership” and how do you know if you’re a good leader?

What are some of the qualities of being a good leader and can you teach someone to lead?

Is leadership an innate skill or do we need to have some sort of superpower to be a good leader?

What about the power to see ahead and adjust for potential roadblocks and issues?

Knowing how to lead and how to give guidance with a following who is interested in following is a key to being a leader.

Listen in for other leadership traits that are key to being a good leader.

About Don: Don Schmincke is the author of the Best-Selling book The Code of Executive and has been featured in the Wall Street Journal and USA Today. He is an Award-Winning Speaker, Researcher, Founder of the SAGA Leadership Institute and delivered over 1,700 speeches.

Connect with Don:
Facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/howtoslaydragons
LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/company/schmincke-research-alliance
Website: https://www.sagaleadership.com

Transcript (auto-generated; may contain errors)

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Hello and welcome to another episode of MOJO: The Meaning of Life & Business. On today’s program,

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we’re going to be talking about leadership and strategic leadership, And it’s really an important subject for us to be focusing on.

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Because if you think about what leadership means it’s not just the CEO, everyone all the way down the line from that CEO, and also, even if you don’t yet have a business or you’re not in business, there’s

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a lot of areas where, being a leader and honing in on various leadership traits and skills are going to be really important for you in your particular position.

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And so we have a really great guest with us today who is going to help us really understand what it means to be a leader, and how we can really craft our leadership skills. before I bring my guest on Let me.

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Give you a little bit of information about him. Why, He’s such a great guest to be here. Don Schmincke is the author of the bestselling book, the Code of Executive and he has been featured in the wall Street journal and U.S.A.,

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today an award-winning Speaker researcher, founder of the Saga Leadership Institute, and has delivered over 1,700 speeches over his career. Don, welcome to the show.

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Thank you. Thanks for having me absolutely. So I guess the first question is before we even get more into honing or leadership skills.

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Does it mean to actually be a leader, though I mean How would you scribe leadership having followers, you know, And and it’s sort of a interesting question, because as we started looking at leadership failures, we started seeing a paradox

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that when we look at the person who has followers that’s typically the leader.

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But then we found a lot of leaders. that ended up being questionable in terms of who they are as personalities.

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So we’re thinking, Why would somebody follow someone with a flawed personality?

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Actually, when Apple started using our work, and my colleague, Ka Cameron Logman pioneered the innovation training at and Apple we were doing a lot of research and on brain innovation How does

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creativity occur and apple needed to know that because you know Steve Jobs had died recently, and then and they started publishing books about Steve’s leadership style.

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And they weren’t saying what we expected I mean They you know they said it was an asshole he was belittling. he disparaged people.

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He was always enraged, or something was going on. That was dysfunctional behavior.

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And I thought an interesting question that no one wasn’t really asking is, How does a guy that violates all the leadership training that we offer in our colleges and and in corporate training, programs How does this guy violates all this end

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up creating the most powerful company in the world, and it was curious.

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My no one was asking that question, but it further at our research to try to find an answer, and it turned out that, like Steve Wasn’t, the only person that had this situation.

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I mean I we saw this same configuration and like General Patent.

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You know you go through the list there’s there’s all these people that have this dysfunctional recently recently, like Mother Teresa was identified as kind of like, Oh, my God, Mother Teresa, But you

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can Google it. The thing that I was curious about is what’s going on here?

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Why are we not teaching leadership properly so? Yes, a follower, a leader has followers.

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But what we now know recently from our research is that the followers are not really following the leader.

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They’re following the story. The leader represents what we call the compelling saga something we stole from the Vikings.

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It’s not your typical mission or purpose or why statements something totally different, and that seems to be what people really follow.

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Now it’s not saying that every people need to be an asshole.

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No we’re saying is that if you have this story they represent that’s really what they’re looking for.

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So that’s a long of answer to your simple question of what’s a leader, and thank you for that.

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So frame it, and not to get involved in politics. here because that’s not the point of the show.

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But we, looking at former President Trump and the people that were following him, whether it was throughout his term as President, or it was in the final days of his presidency and everything in between.

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There was a lot of people who became really big fans and followers of the President, even though his leadership style may differ from what we would normally consider.

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That functional leadership like you were mentioning earlier without getting into any more political of a conversation there.

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Am I correct in that way of understanding? Yeah, we would define that.

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Yeah, I think that’s probably a good example and again he’s I I I don’t know i’m Personally, I met people that you know known him for 20 years you know hanging out in New York city and and

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and the business clubs there. the say is a nice guy so maybe maybe that’s true.

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But I think they weren’t following him because he was a nice guy, even though he might be.

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I think they were following him because he presented a story, and people are following that story, and I think this opened up a series of questions.

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I guess, for the political realm in this country is this is really a battle of stories.

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You know it’s a battle beliefs and yet I see a lot of parties degrading into tactics like you know.

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You know, just they’re forgetting that it’s the story, you know, and they’re falling into just a quagmire of Okay, I don’t know your typical political behavior is But I think if we got back

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to the story piece, which is always served this country. Well, in terms of some of the great things we’ve done.

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You know the activating, for you know, World War 2, the the Space Program Space Program.

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Great example, I mean, you know, kennedy has got an issue is, you know, he’s in a total racial divide in the country.

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Total conflict. The whole civil rights thing was giving birth, and the and the Russians had a spaceship over top of us.

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The sputnik thing so he’s like what i’m gonna do.

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But his, his charter was find something that we can all Engage around, and when and and that’s what happened, and Charles Garfield, I think that was his name or at a book called Peak performance.

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It’s about 2030 years ago. and He could he could show like a tripling of productivity in the aerospace industry, and there was no change. program.

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There was no new mission statement terms of these companies it was about a guy, the President getting on camera and on Tv and just saying, Hey, we’re gonna go to the moon and we’re gonna bring people back to Earth safely and nothing’s

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gonna be more, was the words. he uses nothing’s gonna be tougher or more expensive, and we said deal and the whole country just rallied together.

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And you know we we achieve that so but then the newer I’m Strong came back to our girlfriend trace the productivity declines in the USB.

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And aerospace industry to previous levels of low productivity.

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Now these are just examples, but they’re all through history and I think we should be teaching more of this to people who want to learn about leadership versus everything else.

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We’re teaching It’s just like the story of us going to Mars in a few years, as well I mean we’re talking about the human desire.

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Elon Musk has a very well known push for us to go to Mars.

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There is a push for us to go to the moon again.

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Actually land on the moon. once again, because we haven’t done it in many, many years, and even explore more of space.

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And eventually, I would imagine, really explore more of our oceans.

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As well try to understand what’s on our own planet would be the same kind of an idea where we would be going in terms of having that shared goal and that shared mission like you’re saying behind the story what is

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the value. Where is the story in terms of what it is that we’re trying to do?

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To really be making a difference. So you This is a great start to this conversation.

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So thank you. So let me ask you. Now We know now that we really want to be focused on this story.

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Maybe of what it is that we need to be doing. so.

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If we have a CEO of a business and you can have a CEO like Bernie made off like the guy who ran Enron. i’m blanking on his name right now.

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Ken something. but you have all of those people who that was the story that they had.

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And then you have other stories like Steve Jobs was running apple, and you have musk running so many different entities and other Major Ceos.

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You have Jack Welsh from when, or G rather when he was there.

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And all of these incredible leaders is It that we’re looking at a shared story.

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Leadership type that these people had Bill Gates. Another example.

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And if we look at all of these different people is it the story that we’re following like we see you know as an example to take Michael Dell, how we started in the garage, and brought everything to be a massive computer company

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or Jeff Bezos, Who who was literally taking the books that he was getting, and then taking it, packing it, taking it to the post office himself. The very early days of Amazon.

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How he built that into a company? Is it looking at it from the story of how things are developing?

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Is it looking at it from a story here’s our shared mission?

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What exactly would that story be that we would be looking at to get a better understanding of where that story type of leadership like start in that direction, How that would be coming to for a when we work with companies to develop these stories and growing their sales

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dramatically, and and it was interesting, because it was just an experiment, and we But when we saw you know revenues go up 2, 3, and some cases 10 times the sales within a few years I was just a scientist I didn’t really

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know you know what that meant until a bunch of you said no This is pretty important.

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So that’s how we kept doing doing this research and what we found is the various methods we were using. The one method that was consistent was developing that story.

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Now we ended up calling it a compelling saga, and the reason we use that term was because we had a We had enough medical and a ancient.

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So we had modern biological measurement and ancient measurement around this thing called a compelling saga, and it was different than a mission or a wire vision statement, because we saw a lot of bankrupt companies that had really great statements I

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mean, very inspiring, very motivational. And well, why did they go bankrupt?

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This became a question that no one was asking, but we decided to ask, and it turned out that their stories weren’t necessarily strategically indexed.

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So I would say, Where does it come from? It has to come from strategy.

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In other words, what’s your strategic winning formula and once you have a winning formula, then you can take that strategic, and it should have and create a story around it.

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Now, what’s the story supposed to contain Well, we found out that you know touchy feeling was let’s make everybody happy statements. aren’t good enough.

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It needs to be a story that inspires passion for something ahead that’s that’s so.

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Formidable that a couple of dimensions are triggered, and these are dimensions we see rarely triggered in a mission, or why, or a vision or purpose, statement, and in a compelling saga

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you’re triggering need in other words needing each other.

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So it has to be a challenge ahead where people believe that they need each other in order to achieve it.

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And that was interesting, because we you know, I was on an expedition in the Mla.

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I do a lot of expeditions every year just to learn and test these things in remote regions of the world, and mainly see how operate, how how people are operating in various cultures.

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And this lost civilization in the Himalayas are visited there for about a month, and it was interesting.

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At the end of the expedition the American team starts dysfunctioning, I mean getting political, being selfish being, and it turned out that this happens a lot on expedition teams, and I never noticed it before.

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But once you’ve achieved the goal you don’t need each other anymore. You start dysfunctioning.

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So that’s when i’ve I had this epiphany like Oh, that statement needs to create a belief of need.

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So that’s the first thing we would look for in creating a story it’s Does it create a belief of need?

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And then the last part is, Does it also also create such passion?

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The people are willing to do 2 things that we don’t teach in leadership, school or in in their leadership programs, and that is to suffer and sacrifice together because we don’t have courses on suffering.

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We don’t have courses on sacrifice but we found that those 2 dimensions took a companies to greater heights and greater profitability than anything else, because when it comes to strategic execution, and you had a team that needs each

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other, and they’re so passionate they’re willing to suffer and sacrifice for it.

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They’ll pretty much outrun any other team this just trying to feel good to make sure everybody stays happy.

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That’s what we found from the research and that’s really interesting that you mention that in these expeditions that the groups end up ultimately falling apart.

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I guess the question, though, is, is that yeah it’s all even.

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I mean this is how it worked as a species so these elements weren’t discovered just because we haven’t modern management theory.

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They actually go back to thousands of years. So you look at the most ancient writings of humans, and they’re telling us this exact thing.

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So I think when we developed a 2 million years ago, we had an evolutionary leap in mammals for our neocortex.

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It offered a different way of leading you know because weren’t leading the way.

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Other animals might lead, and so that’s why our species has to create these elements.

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You know what we cause we’re not leading by you know I just dumb on an apple behavior or pheromones, or, you know, different biochemical reactions.

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We’re leading through a different method and it’s about story. So if we were to look at the animal kingdom because you mentioned that, and you’ve got the lion who is the king of the jungle for the King of

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the wild and the lion rules be pride, and everything in it, and all of the animals look up to the lion.

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Is that just pure animal instincts is that the predator versus the predator versus prey kind of idea?

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Is there something there that we’re looking at in the human species and how we look at leadership based on how the animal kingdom looks at it?

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Or is that completely separate and apart from what happens in the animal kingdom?

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Well, I think we we have certain instincts because we we do.

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When we do culture change in companies, we actually look at the triggering, tribal grouping behaviors.

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So we are triggering those types of instincts that actually do happen.

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And and then the in the animal kingdom, and we can use lines as an example.

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The yeah lions males will battle other males for for domination of the of being able to service the females.

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But the females are really into control in a sense because the you know, whenever i’m out and surveying lions, or observing their behavior, I I rarely see a male lion, I mean they’re

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they’re really just alone skirting the periphery protecting is territory from other lions.

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And you know, when there’s a battle what’s usually another male lion, the the femalees Whoever are doing really amazing work.

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I was, I remember, a couple of years ago I was in the was in South Africa, and for a safari and the there was probably oh, maybe a dozen female ions, and the and what’s interesting because we saw 2

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stalking a buffalo below in the valley.

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Then we saw the rest grouping in another area, and then they all decided to go back home, and for some reason this alpha female came back.

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So for some reason we realized these other 2 lines were missing, and went up to the edge of the ravine and and let out this gut shaking growl. and those other 2 lines came up and they all went back as a group which taught

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me that. Yes, it is possible to heard cats because they heard each other pretty well, and they all went back, and we discovered he knew about a dozen of a small small offspring.

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It was really an amazing experience. But the whole point is that the leadership.

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Really, you know it. it depends, I mean in this case. She had an Alpha female was leading the group.

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Who was, you know they were looking for food and things like that.

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The guy I never saw. I mean out there on the periphery summer, and i’m going to ask my guides when I went safari like, you know. where’s where’s the mail line they were harder to find because

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they’re always just around the they would come back to eat and mate. but then they would go back out again to to fight.

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So really all depends what’s you know what this means and I think, for humans, because we, the E will find certain feral activity in certain types of societies. but generally with the neocortex it gives us the possibility of

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more advanced functioning around that. So even though we will see like, for instance, let you know.

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Look at males doing certain criminal activities that are impulsive that cloud of scientists index back to, you know, mammal behaviors at the at the other end.

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We’re actually we’re still creating amazing societies cultures, civilizations, technologies, and that’s you know the advantage, I guess, about having a new cortex.

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Okay, interesting how all of that. And looking at the evolutionary history has impacted our ability to changed.

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And well, I guess evolved. but how we really became more of where we are today.

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Let’s get into the leadership styles there’s numerous dials that leaders have you mentioned.

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Some are more functional than others, and some are authoritarian.

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We see that in the political world how leaders of the authoritarian states, or the they’ve got a certain way of leading. You see how men over history with the monarchs and republics and democracies have

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evolved. There’s a lot of leadership that has happened in that regard.

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But then also, as we’re living today, there are some companies where it is an authoritarian.

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Okay person at the top says this is what we’re doing and this is how we’re doing it, and we’re not going to deviate, and it doesn’t matter what happens and Sometimes they become the relics of the past

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and sometimes they may be onto something. if and when the situation is actually a valid reason for running in that direction. mean you mentioned earlier, President Kennedy’s saying it’s going to be a long and expensive and arduous

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to land somebody on the moon. but we got them there and he’s the one that in his inaugural speech said By the end of the decade, we’re going to have a man on the moon.

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Unfortunately he didn’t lift to see it but it was that idea and he put that in motion over the next 8 and a half years.

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And so there was a lot that happened because of that direct push.

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If we look at the different leadership styles, is there one that is perhaps better for a new business owner or a new manager to really start to want to try and bring in or to hone?

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Is it something that is a mix of leadership? styles?

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What would your recommendation be in terms of looking at it in that regard?

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I It’s interesting tapestry because it all depends. I I’ve seen situations where you know, in a startup, and the the the leader basically made the decisions and delegated actions to be taken But the

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strategic development of direction was was in their head I mean They did their strategic planning every morning in the shower, and that was then the Kent to work, and you know they issued directors, and people wanted them to do that they wanted to know where are

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we going and we’re following you and tell us what we got to do?

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And then you see other situations where it’s group group of people coming together, and they’re collaborating, and you know, like they’re looking at what’s the problem we need to solve here, and what’s possible and how do

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we organize, and they may self-select a leader who can help support the collaboration can help the the integration of the group itself, and they’re successful.

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So. and then, even over time. it changes I mean or there’s there’s situations where you might have a great collaborative consensus driven organization.

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And then a crisis happens. and you know things are on fire I mean That’s not that’s not the time to have a team meeting, and this is where the leader who can be directive can stand up and just say hey?

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Here’s where we’re going and it was interesting Peter shoots the former president of Porsche. you know.

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I met him a few times on the speaking circuit, and I actually had one of the old portions from the original founders in the Us.

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That brought it over. And so it was interesting looking at him, and how he turned portion around, and it was, he said, You know we kind of do things wrong.

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We we try to execute having team meetings and we shouldn’t he should we?

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The team meeting should be before we enter the race, because when we enter the race, and, like the car, comes into the pit. Stop!

00:24:59.000 –> 00:25:11.000
You only have seconds to make something happen. that’s not the time to have a team meeting, so he says we should execute there by using a directive style leadership.

00:25:11.000 –> 00:25:21.000
But plan using a team based style leadership it was an interesting chuck supposition, because we find that a lot of times when we’re executing, and we don’t know the boundaries It’s like wait a minute do we

00:25:21.000 –> 00:25:26.000
What’s the speed we need here? and is this working with a bunch of drawing on team meetings?

00:25:26.000 –> 00:25:34.000
Or should we have figured this out earlier or you know so It’s a hard question to answer, because the situations dictate something different.

00:25:34.000 –> 00:25:37.000
That’s the way when we go into companies we don’t just jump in.

00:25:37.000 –> 00:25:48.000
We actually do a situational analysis interviews observations assessments. And then it’s easy to come in and say, Okay, given your situation here’s what can work?

00:25:48.000 –> 00:26:00.000
And they’ll be launched from there, and I think That’s why a lot of leadership programs fail at such high rates when you when you get on like Google scholar and you look at management theory.

00:26:00.000 –> 00:26:03.000
Failure rate you get like 4 million papers? published and i’m like, Why is this so?

00:26:03.000 –> 00:26:09.000
Many papers published on failure and it’s I think it’s because we we think one way works all the time.

00:26:09.000 –> 00:26:15.000
And so your question is is good question because it’s i’m not sure if one way works all the time.

00:26:15.000 –> 00:26:24.000
I think it requires a situational approach and even that may change over time.

00:26:24.000 –> 00:26:28.000
There’s times where yeah we needed this directive style to get from here to there.

00:26:28.000 –> 00:26:47.000
But now that we’re there, we need to get more interpretive, collaborative approach to moving forward, and I think the flexibility and the adaptability of leadership, is maybe more of the strength of of a powerful organization then you know we’re

00:26:47.000 –> 00:26:54.000
just gonna do it this way and this is the best way and that’s it, you know I haven’t had a lot of success with that.

00:26:54.000 –> 00:27:08.000
We need to teach adaptability absolutely. and I mean we’re talking about failure, and sometimes I mean failure itself can be a major learning opportunity.

00:27:08.000 –> 00:27:12.000
I forget which of the Google founders originally set it.

00:27:12.000 –> 00:27:24.000
But they said that they would rather fail quickly, then slowly, so that they can learn from their mistake pivot and move on.

00:27:24.000 –> 00:27:39.000
And I mean if you look at sergey brin when he was in the pizza business and itself in that reward, I mean, you look at what happened, and it’s going to be completely all right he’s a

00:27:39.000 –> 00:27:48.000
failure. But then he went on to form Google, which is the leader in the search engine space.

00:27:48.000 –> 00:28:07.000
And so there’s a lot of those different things when it comes to failure, and also the I guess the leadership failure of where we’re looking, too, really would have a major impact, because we see how certain companies are going and person at the

00:28:07.000 –> 00:28:19.000
top is failing You bring around these turnaround agents and they’re able to really revive that brand that was honest.

00:28:19.000 –> 00:28:29.000
You know the fast way to extinction and so when it comes down to what it is that we’re doing.

00:28:29.000 –> 00:28:45.000
We know that there’s certain things sometimes we need to have that quick pivot on, and I love how you also said, though it’s not having the meeting when it comes to figuring out direction and the leadership at that point it’s

00:28:45.000 –> 00:28:49.000
the before we actually get in the race like you said when you’re at the pit.

00:28:49.000 –> 00:28:55.000
Stop having 8 s to get the tire change and everything to get the car out of there.

00:28:55.000 –> 00:29:01.000
I mean It’s a huge amount of work that has to be done, and the whole team has to operate .

00:29:01.000 –> 00:29:13.000
And if one person is off by a tenth of a second, it can mean the difference between coming in first or second, and we see how all of that pleasing.

00:29:13.000 –> 00:29:26.000
If we look then at where we are as a leadership style and we know that it’s a tapestry. that person is going to be their own, and maybe they’re a mix of leadership.

00:29:26.000 –> 00:29:34.000
Styles as well. We know also the disk assessments and things on those lines that tell us, Are we more out?

00:29:34.000 –> 00:29:48.000
There are we more reserve? Is there a perturbation when it comes to saying, or a particular way of identifying 4, somebody becomes a leader?

00:29:48.000 –> 00:29:59.000
This is going to be a natural-born leader or this is somebody that we’re gonna need to help understand more how to actually lead like?

00:29:59.000 –> 00:30:12.000
Is there an actual innate quality of leadership I guess would be the best way for this to start from personality profiling or behavioral profiling.

00:30:12.000 –> 00:30:19.000
We haven’t seen a lot of consistency around you need to be this profile, to be a great leader, or this profile determines you’ll be a great leader.

00:30:19.000 –> 00:30:40.000
We have seen a lot of evidence that complex brain functioning does determine the level you can lead from and can identify you as potential leader at the top of the organization. and this came out of a controversial work. from Dr.

00:30:40.000 –> 00:30:55.000
Elliot Jacks, and and remember When he died I met with his his partner, and she was very very illuminating to me around. how they did the research.

00:30:55.000 –> 00:31:00.000
What came out of it, and but it was so politically incorrect, unless you’re a CEO.

00:31:00.000 –> 00:31:10.000
And then it makes a lot of sense that people are really born with a certain neurological capacity for handling the cognitive complex.

00:31:10.000 –> 00:31:15.000
Thinking has nothing to do with intelligence there’s nothing to do with Eq.

00:31:15.000 –> 00:31:26.000
Or Iq or any of the the queues it’s really a way of being able to see complex patterns in your mind, and think and recognize these patterns and deal with that man.

00:31:26.000 –> 00:31:32.000
He found out that went away to measure that is how far out can the person see into the future.

00:31:32.000 –> 00:31:47.000
You know where? where’s their time span with the time horizon they operate from, because if you’re running a a 5 year project that requires much more complex thinking than a 5 day project, and so when he measured the human race, his

00:31:47.000 –> 00:32:04.000
model actually delineated where people think you know, from one day to 3 months to one year, to 2 years to you know 3, 5, 10, all the way up. when was happening, is to I think what was interesting is the and I teach I teach us a lot

00:32:04.000 –> 00:32:12.000
in our in our work. It’s like because it’s you know one day to 3 months. that’s great the most humans can do that.

00:32:12.000 –> 00:32:15.000
Then it goes to one year, then to 2 years, into 5 years.

00:32:15.000 –> 00:32:23.000
As you get higher and higher. there’s fewer humans available so only a few humans can actually see out that far.

00:32:23.000 –> 00:32:31.000
But what he found out was that people always want to follow someone who sees farther than they do. and I thought that was interesting.

00:32:31.000 –> 00:32:34.000
So when it comes to this, answering your question around. Huh!

00:32:34.000 –> 00:32:38.000
Is there a way to tell whether someone has this natural capability?

00:32:38.000 –> 00:32:47.000
I find that biologically we sense this in each other, and followers want to follow someone who can see farther than they can see.

00:32:47.000 –> 00:32:54.000
In other words, have a higher level of complex thinking capacity they don’t think of that consciously but it’s almost an instinctive feeling.

00:32:54.000 –> 00:33:02.000
And so at every level, you want to make sure that there are people always reporting to someone who can see farther who has a higher level of complex thinking.

00:33:02.000 –> 00:33:13.000
This opened up some interesting research for us, because when we found a lot of Ceos getting sucked into operations, and they didn’t realize it until we noted it.

00:33:13.000 –> 00:33:19.000
And and it’s like 80% of them but you know i’m selecting operations too much.

00:33:19.000 –> 00:33:23.000
It turned out that there was a weakness in the team below them.

00:33:23.000 –> 00:33:27.000
In other words, they promoted someone beyond their level of complex thinking.

00:33:27.000 –> 00:33:31.000
So they could no longer delegate to that person.

00:33:31.000 –> 00:33:37.000
They could no longer hand off something, and that person would get it and then begin executing.

00:33:37.000 –> 00:33:43.000
They actually got pulled into that person’s functionality in a sense doing their job.

00:33:43.000 –> 00:33:48.000
And it all had to do with this, this brain theory that came out of the psychiatric product.

00:33:48.000 –> 00:33:56.000
Lh. X. Now it was so controversial and politically incorrect that I never took off on the in the best summer area.

00:33:56.000 –> 00:34:14.000
But when you become a CEO it takes off very Well, and it helps you structure your organization, and it helps you explain why there’s a lot of conflict going on that you couldn’t explain before that’s really interesting to think about did you

00:34:14.000 –> 00:34:24.000
bring the person up fast. Do you bring the wrong person up because they don’t have the right brain capacity which is really interesting.

00:34:24.000 –> 00:34:31.000
And I guess the question, though, would be if I were in a company, and I have a Vp.

00:34:31.000 –> 00:34:42.000
Of operations, and my C oo role came up because my coo retired, moved to another opportunity, whatever it might be.

00:34:42.000 –> 00:34:48.000
How would I note that my Vice President of Operations is not necessarily the best person?

00:34:48.000 –> 00:34:56.000
But maybe my sales Vp. would be better is there something there that we can better understand.

00:34:56.000 –> 00:35:02.000
I’m just trying to really wrap my head around that and I understand it’s controversial and non Pc.

00:35:02.000 –> 00:35:13.000
And everything. But I think that a lot of our listeners would really try and be i’m sure that if you’re listening, you’re probably wondering the same thing.

00:35:13.000 –> 00:35:25.000
How do you know that this person is going to be right or this person is going to be wrong if i’m looking at bringing somebody up, so that I’m not going to be in that seat, whether It’s operations or it’s

00:35:25.000 –> 00:35:30.000
sales marketing, whatever it might be, because in each of them the big picture is still out there.

00:35:30.000 –> 00:35:37.000
I in their specific vagary, and the CEO may be drawn in any of those roles, simply because they’re chief executive.

00:35:37.000 –> 00:35:45.000
But is there something that would say? this person really and I know you said it’s instinctual.

00:35:45.000 –> 00:35:53.000
But is there anything that would help us really understand that better in terms of that way of thinking?

00:35:53.000 –> 00:35:58.000
Yeah, what’s the longest term project that can successfully manage?

00:35:58.000 –> 00:36:03.000
In other words, yeah. your Vp. may be great.

00:36:03.000 –> 00:36:11.000
At one year. Projects like there are Vp. and you want them to do one of your projects, and they’re excellent, and all of a sudden, Now you got to promote them.

00:36:11.000 –> 00:36:24.000
Well, could they run a 3 year project or 5 year project and if they can’t That’s probably not the person because you’re gonna be dealing with strategic issues that requires someone to be thinking out ahead on trends and

00:36:24.000 –> 00:36:38.000
patterns in the markets and clients and all that and if they’re just thinking that year to year you’re gonna have a problem because they’re not going to be making decisions that impact a 3 or horizon only on your

00:36:38.000 –> 00:36:48.000
rise. So let’s get into that for a second if I have the 1, 3, 5 year horizon.

00:36:48.000 –> 00:36:53.000
Am I looking at this in a big picture with milestones?

00:36:53.000 –> 00:37:03.000
Am I looking at it, Big picture overall? Am I looking at the individual milestones to get me to where we want to be in 5 years?

00:37:03.000 –> 00:37:11.000
So i’m trying just to get an idea because I know that there’s this idea of transformational leadership, which is basically looking at it on a big picture.

00:37:11.000 –> 00:37:20.000
But then you may miss a couple of different pieces along the way because you’re focused on the big picture, and so you may miss certain pieces.

00:37:20.000 –> 00:37:30.000
So is the person that we’re looking at bringing in based on a 3, 5 year horizon is it that they’re more than a transformational leadership.

00:37:30.000 –> 00:37:39.000
Is it more that there’s somewhere else. what is it that we would really be looking at just to better understand that.

00:37:39.000 –> 00:37:43.000
Well you know with that only its model it’s like it’s a one year, a 2 year, and a 5 year horizon.

00:37:43.000 –> 00:37:49.000
What’s happening in this is that it’s I mean a couple of things.

00:37:49.000 –> 00:38:02.000
One is will be found is that people they’re they’re if you’re if let’s say you’re a one year, thank you, and you want to be a tier thinker or a five-year thinker

00:38:02.000 –> 00:38:13.000
there was no transformational impact that made that happen. In other words, you could throw as many transformational courses or coaches could consultant, or trainers or Tedx talks.

00:38:13.000 –> 00:38:22.000
If at this person, and they would still not be able to run a project from one year to 2 years, or from one year to 5 years.

00:38:22.000 –> 00:38:25.000
And that’s what was controversy about alias work because we’re always taught.

00:38:25.000 –> 00:38:33.000
Well, everybody’s got potential. Everybody can you know they can always learn and grow and be, you know, better, and so we can’t.

00:38:33.000 –> 00:38:40.000
We don’t want to label people and or stick them in a box, and what this is saying is no we stick them in a box.

00:38:40.000 –> 00:38:55.000
That’s how it works and what’s interesting. is we found some genetic patterns that may make this make sense, you know, and it’s like as our species evolved you don’t want to have a bunch of people

00:38:55.000 –> 00:39:09.000
thinking out 5 years that would be crazy because we’d all starve because nobody’s collecting the crops. you know no place doing the day to day work. and on the other hand, if you have just a bunch of people who are thinking day

00:39:09.000 –> 00:39:24.000
to day. Then you’ve then you you’re gonna go extinct, because nobody’s deleting nobody’s out there looking at you know, the farther reaches of what’s possible and so this was highly effective and very in

00:39:24.000 –> 00:39:32.000
terms of growing companies very, very important distinction, but it does go against the grain of cheese.

00:39:32.000 –> 00:39:39.000
We can transform anybody to do anything and we just haven’t seen the data on that

00:39:39.000 –> 00:39:52.000
It’s interesting, and you kind of get the idea you want somebody who understands the weather patterns that understands how the crops are going to grow when to plant the crops, and all of that.

00:39:52.000 –> 00:39:55.000
So you really have a better understanding instead of just doing it right?

00:39:55.000 –> 00:40:02.000
Everybody just throw everything in the ground today and we’ll see what comes in 6 months and who knows where we’re going to be

00:40:02.000 –> 00:40:20.000
So it’s really interesting to think of it in that regard. let me ask you, then, when it comes down to leadership styles, and there’s a lot of different styles that are out there is and again I know we said

00:40:20.000 –> 00:40:27.000
that it’s dependent on the person to really figure out what works best for them.

00:40:27.000 –> 00:40:32.000
But is there anything that we can do to help them grow in that leadership style?

00:40:32.000 –> 00:40:38.000
And that’s not necessarily saying the one to 2 year or one to 5 year project.

00:40:38.000 –> 00:40:49.000
But is there anything that we can do? support them to make them better leaders and understand more what the job really entails?

00:40:49.000 –> 00:41:00.000
Being a good leader and not just well it’s also based on story and good luck coming up with a story, and go I mean, we don’t want to throw them into the lions.

00:41:00.000 –> 00:41:20.000
Then and say, Go, do it So I guess the question is what can we do to make sure that we support our new leaders as they become leaders, Assuming they’re at the level of leadership that they can function in Then there are a

00:41:20.000 –> 00:41:37.000
ton of books and courses and trainings on how to do that I mean there’s and you can learn something from everything, you know, behavioral profiling management styles, situational awareness and or situational leadership there’s a

00:41:37.000 –> 00:41:45.000
lot of tons of raid coaches and and books out there on how to improve yourself as a leader.

00:41:45.000 –> 00:41:53.000
I think so. I don’t think we have any any lack of that. I mean there are 35,000 books in business published every year.

00:41:53.000 –> 00:41:58.000
I think at that 35,000 you could find 3 that might help the person for what they they need.

00:41:58.000 –> 00:42:04.000
But I think when you’re developing someone and you’re looking at them, they may be finding out where where are they?

00:42:04.000 –> 00:42:19.000
Strong were they weak, and in the weakness then provide those trainings in those coaching, and there’s those books necessary to try to get them aware of that area of the weakness that blind spot, if you will. and and and develop more.

00:42:19.000 –> 00:42:31.000
There the mistake I think we make as we said earlier is when you want to promote them beyond their level of complex thinking that doesn’t matter how much training they’ve had they’ll be unable to fulfill that position

00:42:31.000 –> 00:42:37.000
whereas in their previous job they could have been great as a leader. they could have been great in their function.

00:42:37.000 –> 00:42:50.000
I can’t tell you. how many times somebody came in and to me and said, like, I got a fire, my vice president of sales, and i’m like, Well, how did they become vice President and the Cs is why promoted them? Because they were great

00:42:50.000 –> 00:42:55.000
salesperson like great you just destroyed you’re great salesperson.

00:42:55.000 –> 00:43:05.000
You you put them in a role that they’re totally not able to function that now, if see ego is very low, the evil spirit, as we call on the samurai terms from my first, book, it’s they want to go back to

00:43:05.000 –> 00:43:09.000
work being a great salesperson, you know they’re they’re frustrated.

00:43:09.000 –> 00:43:12.000
They they know they’re doing something wrong they don’t know how to fix it.

00:43:12.000 –> 00:43:24.000
They just can put me back in a sales role That’s what I love doing, you know, so promoting people beyond their level is the most, I think, dangerous thing when you look at leadership development.

00:43:24.000 –> 00:43:38.000
But once they’re where the level is or sure there’s thousands tens of thousands of books and topics, and on the off something that we can learn from you know there’s there’s always sudden nuggets somewhere that you could

00:43:38.000 –> 00:44:03.000
find. I Guess my question then goes to if somebody is looking and starting their own business, and they weren’t previously a leader in that role of what they’ve been doing was the first thing that they wanna be doing would that be having them

00:44:03.000 –> 00:44:14.000
say they need to have a co-founder who would really be doing the CEO role in terms of the business.

00:44:14.000 –> 00:44:19.000
Would it be that they take it on and see what they can do?

00:44:19.000 –> 00:44:26.000
How would we give that person guidance? Because we know that I mean first of all, a lot of

00:44:26.000 –> 00:44:36.000
The listeners of this program are entrepreneurs and aspiring entrepreneurs and solorepreneurs.

00:44:36.000 –> 00:44:41.000
Maybe 2 3 people in the business, but are we looking though at saying, All is lost.

00:44:41.000 –> 00:44:54.000
Which hopefully we’re not how do we look at that in terms the take away really in terms of the conversation.

00:44:54.000 –> 00:45:04.000
Yeah, I it’s Funny, you say, that because i’m actually i’m finishing a book I was just editing it on entrepreneurship, because I got a lot of demand for taking the research of that and Then make it

00:45:04.000 –> 00:45:07.000
available to entrepreneurs so we’re working with a lot on that.

00:45:07.000 –> 00:45:12.000
In fact, one of the secrets in the book is what you said earlier, that came up with a failure.

00:45:12.000 –> 00:45:16.000
You know we’re teaching how to win as an entrepreneur.

00:45:16.000 –> 00:45:28.000
We’re not teaching how to lose and so it’s in the that great Google comment you made earlier about let’s fail quickly. So we can learn and I think that’s that’s the key now in

00:45:28.000 –> 00:45:32.000
entrepreneurship if you’re looking at Well, you know again it depends.

00:45:32.000 –> 00:45:36.000
Let’s say you’re let’s say you’re doing a franchise or something, as an entrepreneur.

00:45:36.000 –> 00:45:45.000
Well that’s that’s different because quite frankly If you making you know Hamburgers, You need to have somebody that can figure out how to manage a staff recruit.

00:45:45.000 –> 00:45:56.000
Get him working and deal with customer service and that’s a different thing than if you’re saying Well, I wanna develop a an off-site Pharma research lab to test new drugs.

00:45:56.000 –> 00:46:00.000
It’s like Okay, well, that’s totally different and in fact, you don’t have to be the main researcher.

00:46:00.000 –> 00:46:07.000
You just have to know that there’s a business here. you can hire the researchers, and you can hire the people that do the great work.

00:46:07.000 –> 00:46:13.000
You just need to have strategy. So I guess the short answer is, I would start with strategy.

00:46:13.000 –> 00:46:16.000
You know. What does winning mean to you as an entrepreneur?

00:46:16.000 –> 00:46:19.000
And how are you going to win? How are you going to do it, then?

00:46:19.000 –> 00:46:24.000
That should be able to open up and answer the question, Who do I need?

00:46:24.000 –> 00:46:27.000
And some people may say, Well, I just need to outsource all the stuff.

00:46:27.000 –> 00:46:32.000
Initially, you know I I need to outsource my my manufacturing to this group.

00:46:32.000 –> 00:46:35.000
I need to outsource my marketing. and pr to this group.

00:46:35.000 –> 00:46:47.000
I need, you know, and then get things rolling and shipping. and then cash flow comes in. and then you make another decision, saying, Okay, which of these can I bring in house as I grow, And then you do that, But initially, you’re

00:46:47.000 –> 00:46:56.000
like baseball, since you’re out there packing a shipping books and taking around the post office until it’s like, Well, okay, maybe I need somebody to pack the books for me.

00:46:56.000 –> 00:47:01.000
I I have enough money Now I can hire that person you know, and then you you kind of build from there.

00:47:01.000 –> 00:47:10.000
So it it’s really hard to kind of a black and white question with this, because I don’t there’s a big ray area, and a lot of it depends on the entrepreneur.

00:47:10.000 –> 00:47:18.000
But if you have a strategy for winning, it gets a lot easier to answer that question, because then you could do simple things.

00:47:18.000 –> 00:47:22.000
And actually we do this in our own business modeling as well as who else is in the industry?

00:47:22.000 –> 00:47:26.000
And what did they do you know it’s like okay you may not be the first in.

00:47:26.000 –> 00:47:31.000
So learn, you know. join join groups of of Ceos that are in the same space.

00:47:31.000 –> 00:47:34.000
And what did they do to start off? What mistakes do they make?

00:47:34.000 –> 00:47:41.000
You know. What can you learn from their failures and and grow that because it’s like I said it’s different, you know.

00:47:41.000 –> 00:47:48.000
Get up 10 entrepreneurs and 10 different industries and there’s 10 different answers depending on what they’re doing.

00:47:48.000 –> 00:47:51.000
I don’t know if i’m helping you or not with that answer.

00:47:51.000 –> 00:48:05.000
No, I I think you are in I mean just going back to a perfect example of maybe not being a one to be calling the shots in the beginning.

00:48:05.000 –> 00:48:11.000
And a really famous

00:48:11.000 –> 00:48:26.000
Right. Jessica Alba formed the company. She had a couple of co-founders with her, but if I remember correctly, she never served as its CEO. it was always in different areas of the business where she was

00:48:26.000 –> 00:48:39.000
focused on. and if you look at Goop which is one of Paltro’s business, she does serve in a management arm of that business. But she also has that Mba. and she understands business a little bit differently.

00:48:39.000 –> 00:48:41.000
In terms of maybe, where Jessica elbow was.

00:48:41.000 –> 00:49:00.000
And again. Not that either. One is more fit than the other That’s not what I mean to say, but it’s just looking at where strengths are, and going back to the idea where maybe we just need to really have people hang out like you were

00:49:00.000 –> 00:49:11.000
saying where other Ceos are have that advisory board and that’s one of the things that I tell everybody all the time, and if you’re a longtime listener of this show you know that I’ve said it multiple times is to

00:49:11.000 –> 00:49:25.000
have that advisory board made up of an insurance guy an accountant, a banker, an attorney industry mentor a coach, Different people that are in those roles, because You don’t want to be looking after there’s

00:49:25.000 –> 00:49:39.000
a problem for that person you want them all along working with you So that way they’re giving you that guidance where you may be lacking in somewhere that you just can’t foresee where a problem may be And so

00:49:39.000 –> 00:49:44.000
It’s really important to think about it in that regard how you can be looking at this.

00:49:44.000 –> 00:49:49.000
How you can be doing all of those different pieces. but you can really be making that difference.

00:49:49.000 –> 00:50:11.000
So as we look at where we go from here and there’s so much out there on leadership done that I think that our listeners are really going to want to figure out more want to learn more in terms of leadership What is involved where do

00:50:11.000 –> 00:50:17.000
we go. How do we do? Some companies may want to put people through actual training.

00:50:17.000 –> 00:50:23.000
Some people may want to learn how to be better leaders in their own.

00:50:23.000 –> 00:50:29.000
So I guess the first question is, how how can people find out more about you?

00:50:29.000 –> 00:50:35.000
Okay. Well, the website we’re trying to use as an umbrella for everything we’re doing is saga leadership.

00:50:35.000 –> 00:50:44.000
As I mentioned the Viking saga term sagaleadership.com, I mean, we’re we’re now kind of reorganizing and evolving that side.

00:50:44.000 –> 00:50:54.000
We want to put everything in one place that’s a good place to go to see what’s what’s what in track research that we’re continuing to do, and the services that we offered and we’re trying to get more

00:50:54.000 –> 00:51:01.000
exposed and offering to the entrepreneur level, because we’ve been working with major corporations and mid-size corporations.

00:51:01.000 –> 00:51:05.000
But I’m getting really excited about the entrepreneurial area.

00:51:05.000 –> 00:51:13.000
And now, because of Covid like, I have I’m in my cigar room here with, you know, Korean screen and everything I actually started doing videos.

00:51:13.000 –> 00:51:25.000
And I thought, Wow! this is great because I can get out to thousands of people at one time versus just a few 100 and and so i’m learning too, and i’m making a lot of mistakes as we go but i’m getting

00:51:25.000 –> 00:51:34.000
better at it. maybe offer A. You know, online distribution of research findings that we have and and tips and techniques.

00:51:34.000 –> 00:51:43.000
So this new book hopefully in the next 9 months i’ll have something out on pulling together a lot of what we’re talking about.

00:51:43.000 –> 00:51:50.000
That’s great and definitely look into the saga leadership dot com site.

00:51:50.000 –> 00:52:03.000
Because you’re gonna find so much information there and I know that I believe there’s also a free course that you can opt into that.

00:52:03.000 –> 00:52:08.000
You can get a little bit of information on on site as well I know that I’m.

00:52:08.000 –> 00:52:13.000
In middle personally of reviewing the information that was there.

00:52:13.000 –> 00:52:21.000
And so I strongly suggest that you take advantage of don’t immense knowledge in this space.

00:52:21.000 –> 00:52:38.000
The more that you really look at what it means to you being a leader, what it means to your company’s success being a leader, what it means to everybody around you, and it doesn’t matter like we said in the beginning if it’s

00:52:38.000 –> 00:52:47.000
your company if it’s volunteer leadership if it’s simply getting involved in the community as an activist and leader.

00:52:47.000 –> 00:52:54.000
There are so many different ways that leadership takes the way that you see it.

00:52:54.000 –> 00:53:02.000
And It’s really important to understand what it means we said It’s that story that’s out there. what is it?

00:53:02.000 –> 00:53:17.000
That really makes a difference in terms of understanding what people are going to be drawn to. And it isn’t necessarily like Don was saying in the beginning that you have to be incredible as a leader.

00:53:17.000 –> 00:53:30.000
Sometimes the leadership style may simply be everybody is following that story, whether or not you’re the group leader, but they believe in the story, and they believe in pass.

00:53:30.000 –> 00:53:52.000
And where you can go from there the more that you can be doing and looking at how you get there, the easier it is going to be for you to really start seeing how that leadership is really going to be important and understanding where you go So done. I wanna thank you again. for being my guest on today’s

00:53:52.000 –> 00:54:12.000
program. Great thanks for having me. and again check out saga leadership. Dot com that information will be in the description as well for the show and will include John’s other ways of reaching out on social media so you can be

00:54:12.000 –> 00:54:28.000
following done and really start making sure that you’ve got the various tools and resources you need, and in about 9 months or so, when Don’s new book comes out, you’ll certainly know and be able to keep track of that when you’re

00:54:28.000 –> 00:54:46.000
following done on social and everything else on that note. This has been another episode of Mojo: The Meaning of Life & Business and until next time, here’s to your success.